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Author Topic: Have Your Voice Heard [Part 5] - Maps?  (Read 7872 times)
khalsa
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« on: August 25, 2008, 05:30:33 AM »

OK Guys and Gals,

The new site is coming along nicely and we've incorporated a lot of your suggestions. One suggestion we have not yet implemented, but want to is some sort of system for community created maps. Not other content, just maps - other content is being handled separately.

People want to vote/rate maps , submit maps to an official repository, review maps. What I'd like to see in this thread is specific and concrete ideas on the best way to handle this - be it some preexisting system such as pligg, or your write up a complete feature set for us to code up. I want details people!

What do you think is the best sort of way to handle maps in all stages?

Code:
Beta maps?
Released maps?
"official maps"?
Maps being accepted into the repository?
What sort of requirements should there be for all these sort of things to be within this system?
Should reviews be from official reviewers only with community comments under them, or should everyone be able to review?

I'm sure you guys can think of a 100 different questions and answers, so please use this thread as a way to discuss and elaborate on your own and other ideas. I'll be popping in here with questions about them, and the best ideas of the lot get implemented!

I really have no good answers in mind at the moment, some people want some sort of tracker, some people want some sort of pligg-like system, some people only want downloads and links and such - tell me MORE and DETAILED explanations so I can get a feel for what you guys think is needed/good.

So get to it, tell me about maps and stuff!


Khalsa

p.s This thread will be Nazi modded as expected, please don't crap it up as I am currently very trigger happy and WILL ban you.
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janev
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 07:51:06 AM »

An active website which all mappers use to submit their maps would be fine imho. The site would need to be linked to from tremulous.net since most people like me are too retarded to search.

A sticky in the mapping sub forum might even be enough for most people. The sticky would contain a list of all maps available organized in a way whoever makes/maintains the thread in question finds aesthetically pleasing and clear. Info that i would like in that thread would look something like

header (final version maps)
linktofile

description of map: size, theme if there is one, objectives, points of interest

technical data and screenshots

new header (beta maps)
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Author of "The quick beginner's guide to playing tremulous"
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cactusfrog


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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 08:12:49 AM »

this is how i think the site should be laid out. A list of all the maps should be on the side and at the top of the list there should be fore tabs final beta alpha and show all.  The description should be flexible allowing the author to write what ever he wants.  For alpha and beta maps there should be another link next to comments that says bug report so you can send an email to the map maker alerting him/her of a glitch.
 
click for bigger picture
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 08:20:29 AM by cactusfrog » Logged
David
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David


« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 08:55:08 AM »

WARNING:  This post is probably incoherent, and very rambling.

For the MG download thing, I was going to code up a big map upload system.  I gave up.  The general idea was, it would track maps and files seperatly, so I would say I made a map called ATCS, and then I could upload lots of files attached to it, and it would only show the one marked as the latest in the list, while leaving the others downloadable.  (Version number spam is annoying).
It should also check your maps are legit, should be map-name*.pk3, the map-name bit shouldn't conflict with someone else's map, should check for a (valid??) bsp, make sure no QVM's/other stuff etc.
When uploading it should auto-extract the levelshot, and have an option for them to upload sources and other files with it, and licence etc etc.
Should also track stats from downloads, how many and if auto-download or people on the site.

Anyone should be able to rate them, and leave comments, then there should be a team of reviewer like people who can leave formal reviews and can promote other peoples stuffs to being a proper review, so anyone can write one and if its well written it gets there.
Comments and reviews etc should be vote-able them selves, so spam sinks and good stuff rises.
Comments should be tied to both the map and the file, so when looking at the latest version of a map I see reviews for the beta, but it says its an old review in big letters.
The whole thing should be searchable / sortable for ease of finding stuffs.  Nice ajax form please Smiley.
Should also be able to tag them, and get a tag-cloud or whatever.
Default maps should be marked.
It would be totaly awesome if it could tie into the master servers game stats thing to be able to say how often its been played and on which servers, and a rough guess as to which servers have it in rotation.
IMO new mappers should have to be checked before being OK'd, but have a large-ish team able to do it, (same as reviewers??) and be able to mark someone as trusted, so once you've produced a "real" map, you can just upload them and we assume you're not a spammer/retard.
Either offer http downloads for servers (would need mod support etc), or have a way that those of us who do can easyly mirror all new uploads.
Should also provide a md5sums file so we can make sure there all OK.
Be nice if all authentication can be tied into the forums, single signon etc.
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Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.
UniqPhoeniX
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 09:38:03 AM »

Sortable list of maps with name, mapper, link to direct download of latest version, rating (official rating of latest version - average user rating(amount of ppl who have rated)), map size, small thumbnail of levelshot. Mapper, comments and rating should be linked to forum account. And a search ofc  Smiley
(Show: [ ] Alphas    [v] Betas    [ ] Finals (maybe also previews, release candidates?) Sort by: [drop down menu with mapname, mapper name, rating...]
(Mapname; mapper name; [Beta 5 - 12.4 MB - 25.08.08]; 9.5 - 8.6 (47), medium [pic here]). Maybe make each map take 2 lines (since pic is too big for 1 anyway) with 2nd line having a slider (with your rating saved)+button to rate/update rating, if ther is official review and how many comments.
(--------|---- 7.2 [Rate] Not reviewed, 4 comments)

Clicking on any line (except download link) would take to a page about that map with all that info + mapper notes, larger thumbnails of levelshot and a few screenies with link to more screenies, review, maybe a small list of links to download of all versions (with info on filesize, date released, # of downloads, link to older reviews if ther is any), comments and a link to forum topic.
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benmachine

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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 12:13:02 PM »

The problem with sorting by alpha/beta/RC/final is that these designations tend to mean different things to different people. It could be just as good to sort by New Releases and Up-and-Coming or something like that.
If we do have reviews on a per-map basis, I think it would probably not be a good idea to have an Official Team, but instead we could have a system like Amazon where reviews are submitted and then judged by users, perhaps with developer reviews taking a more prominent position.
It might be possible to categorise maps by theme, size, objective-based or standard arena etc. but it could also be difficult to audit these categories.

Also could have facilities for developers - we have a wiki somewhere that could probably do with updating, we could have download links for Radiant and associated files, and I don't know what else.

Other people's ideas I like:
Grouping releases into a single map project or listing
Polling servers (probably periodically rather than on-demand) to see which maps are getting played. I think the balance statistics thing already does this, but I'm not certain.
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benmachine
David
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David


« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 12:33:00 PM »

Polling servers (probably periodically rather than on-demand) to see which maps are getting played. I think the balance statistics thing already does this, but I'm not certain.
The servers all report at the end of every map, which is where the balance stats come from.
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Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.
Bomb
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 02:07:58 PM »

How about something like Google Code?

1] Get an account and log in.
2] Go to the New Projects page and type in your map's name.
3] Write the Wiki page, post up some screenshots in Screenshots, and upload releases to Files.
4] People can add comments in Feedback.

And there you have it.

For small random maps, maybe a simple Repository page. Log in and upload your map with a title and a brief description.
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Bissig


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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 12:33:14 AM »

I like the way the KDE project handles user generated content like themes, icon sets, wallpapers, widgets etc..
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Darth Futuza


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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 12:21:33 AM »

You guys may want to take a few tips from jk3files (for Jedi Academy, another Quake based game).  Obviously their site isn't as nice as it could be, but...nonetheless IT has CONSTANT activity and there are new MAPS almost weekly.  Good maps mind you as well.

So obviously something there is working.  May I suggest that it be one (or many) of these things:

#1 Their Search Button works (actually finds things you were looking for)
#2 Most downloaded Mods/Maps get a little "hot" label, indicating that that is a good map, because...everybody downloads it
#3 They review their Mods/Maps!  They let everything through (excepting intended malware, worthless junk, etc...) and give everybody a chance, but...they'll give you a bad review if the map/mod sucks.  If its good, you'll get a good review.  Furthermore, they put this review before the download button, thereby causing more people to notice the review and notice whether or not its a good map/mod or not.
#4 They have File of the Week/Map of the Week in a clear obvious place (home page), thereby letting the community know about new maps and mappers.
#5 They're the first thing you find on Google.
#6 People can make comments about the map (eg: I agree with the review 5/5! etc...) at the bottom of the Mod/Maps page.  The more comments a map has, the better it is.  (Most of the time.)

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Also there ought to be an "official" Mod/Map site, or at least one accepted by mostly everybody in the community and approved by the development team.  That way if you've made a new map/mod, its easy to get noticed (or ignored if your a terrible modder/mapper).  This "official" site ought to have a link on the tremulous site.

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The "Reviewers" of the aforementioned (jk3) site, are pre-chosen by the site's administration, on account of: good experience, constant use, good reviewer, etc...  Thus no "bad" reviews...or at least if you give bad reviews your off the team.

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I thought I should also mention it would be nice for somebody to make an auto patch for GTK Radiant allowing you to map with Tremulous.  (Instead of having to do everything manually...it would encourage more mappers).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 11:13:42 PM by Darth Futuza » Logged
David
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David


« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 10:51:55 AM »

#2 Most downloaded Mods/Maps get a little "hot" label, indicating that that is a good map, because...everybody downloads it

That's stupid.
If a map has a "hot" icon by it, I download it, find its shit, and delete it.  It still got my vote though, so will forever be "hot".
If you use how many player/hours the map has had / games played / player votes  then you will end up with a score that reflects something decent.

Another site to look at: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/
There system works very well.

EDIT:  Also tie it in to the balance graphs, so we can see which maps are good / bad at what sizes.
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Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
--
My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.
Lava Croft
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 02:09:42 PM »

Copy the Gloom Map Depository and I am happy.
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Darth Futuza


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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 11:10:08 PM »

#2 Most downloaded Mods/Maps get a little "hot" label, indicating that that is a good map, because...everybody downloads it

That's stupid.
If a map has a "hot" icon by it, I download it, find its shit, and delete it.  It still got my vote though, so will forever be "hot".
If you use how many player/hours the map has had / games played / player votes  then you will end up with a score that reflects something decent.

Another site to look at: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/
There system works very well.

EDIT:  Also tie it in to the balance graphs, so we can see which maps are good / bad at what sizes.

Your point is well taken, however, may I point out that its not ONLY the "hot" icon that makes me download a map.  That simply makes it easier to find.  A "hot" icon is, as you said, certainly not a guarantee of a good map, however it certainly helps when in addition to the other things I mentioned (and which are possible to implement while rating that map).  Please notice:
Quote
May I suggest that it be one (or many) of these things:
the MANY in there is important.

Perhaps it would be better to say a "hot" icon makes me look at the review and THEN I decide if its worth downloading.  And I'm pretty sure the "hot" icon is generated by more than just # of downloads, but as well as # of comments, etc...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 11:14:50 PM by Darth Futuza » Logged
player1


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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 12:34:26 AM »

I would prefer a PlanetGame_name_here approach. With a large map repository, with screenies and links for each, accompanied by a review from a member of a select group (panel/guild/cabal/staff). Certain maps, which are popular with the community, and in rotation, but especially, actually in play on multiple servers, should be kept near the top of the listings, so that new players can find the recent/current/still/always popular maps, and get on servers to play. (Perhaps a way can be found to track stats of the popularity of maps by showing peak players per completed map?) [And of course: Some battle hints for the default maps, just to get new players started, on a linked-to page.]

The simpler, prettier, neater, cleaner, and more served-up-on-a-platter, the better.

Thanks for asking for input. You rock.

Good luck with it.

Cheers!
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