Author Topic: Planned Development Games  (Read 303425 times)

Lakitu7

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #210 on: February 08, 2009, 11:00:57 PM »
After messing with mara in devmap for about 30 mins, I can adress Nux's complaint.

Initially after messing with it I felt the same, actually. I declared that I was going to push for reverting that change.  The shorter jump makes it feel slower when I try to play the same as in 1.1.

However, the timing is different, but the old speeds are still equally possible if not faster ones. Shorter jumps mean you can walljump more often and obtain higher speeds. You need to hit the button more often than you did in 1.1. That (combined with the other physics changes) also lets you hop straight up a wall very quickly, so most of the old trickjumps fail at the old timings a corner, but work if you just go straight up.

As for whether or not it's too easy to hit: that goes back to "If it's too good, then show up and own everyone with it unfairly and watch it get nerfed."

However I encourage you to fool around with the move speeds and I think you will eventually come to the same conclusion.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 11:19:31 PM by Lakitu7 »

St. Anger

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #211 on: February 08, 2009, 11:45:30 PM »
It seems like every other week hits on mara go from good to ok to bad to great, etc. But as far as zap goes I could care less, I always found it worthless and I still do. But mara's being slow now really nerfs mara bigtime imo. Trying to run away from humans is almost pointless now, should just fight til the death. It takes away the whole image of marauders being swift hit and run attackers.

Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #212 on: February 09, 2009, 12:30:42 AM »
As for whether or not it's too easy to hit: that goes back to "If it's too good, then show up and own everyone with it unfairly and watch it get nerfed."

To be clear, I'm not saying that the new mara zap- among other such changes -is overpowered. Many changes can be made that are 'balanced' statistically.

I'm saying that the new zap is easy. I don't like moves that do the work for you. I don't find them fun.

As a player who enjoys the 'dancing' side of gameplay; where your opponents dodging ability can trump your aiming ability, I'm not happy to be given attacks that subvert this defense completely. I'd much prefer the new moves to reward ingenuity and skill.

Cadynum

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #213 on: February 09, 2009, 01:04:26 AM »
Nux++, easy is boring. :(

The same applies for the flamer, a really boring weapon that does all the work for you.

On another note, stage 3 is still horribly boring as well.
They effectively remove any use of the non-stage3 classes/weapons since you wont stand a chance against stage 3 opponents if you roll with the lower stages. (Well, except for maybe one basi on your team only acting as a booster)
The most boring class is definitely the rant, being massive in it's size everything can hit it, and it can hit everything too. On the human side of boring we got the chainsuit. Facing a couple of chainsuits the only class you can go with is a rant, since the massive knockback they generate is enough to push back any other alien out of attack range.
Compare this to stage 1 and 2 where you can see a big variety of aliens and humans fighting. Stage 3 really limits your choices, and unfortunately those classes are rather boring and requires way less skill than stage 1 and 2.

In short, stage 1 and 2: Dancing with the enemy, using a big variety of weapons or classes with every class/weapon being good in a specific situation.
Stage 3: Humans using either the chainsuit with lots of life and a weapon requiring a lot less aiming or the luci, and the aliens with the rants mauling everything and getting shot by everything.
(Yes - this is nothing new for MGDev, and was as boring in 1.1 too)

Some random ideas (I know this wont happen, but it complements the post):
The chainsuit focuses on speed rather than health and a steady chaingun. For example it could give more stamina for +button6, or just be slightly faster in general.
The rant removed and replaced with a class the size of the goon, but faster and/or stronger attacks with some unique feature. (Actually, it could have something like the rants maul, be smaller and have less health)
If anything, it could be tested and reverted back if it sucked.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 01:06:02 AM by Cadynum »

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #214 on: February 09, 2009, 01:29:50 AM »
Quote from: http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk/src/game/tremulous.h?revision=754&view=markup
#define LEVEL2_SPEED                1.2f
Quote from: http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/projects/mgdev/repository/entry/src/game/tremulous.h
#define LEVEL2_SPEED                1.2f
marauder speed is the same, and the 1.1 jump height is more a detriment than a benefit to actually gaining large speeds.
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
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Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #215 on: February 09, 2009, 09:24:08 AM »
Quote from: http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk/src/game/tremulous.h?revision=754&view=markup
#define LEVEL2_SPEED                1.2f
Quote from: http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/projects/mgdev/repository/entry/src/game/tremulous.h
#define LEVEL2_SPEED                1.2f
marauder speed is the same, and the 1.1 jump height is more a detriment than a benefit to actually gaining large speeds.

All I can speak for is how it 'feels'. If the mara is still/more agile and I'm just not using it right then that's fine. Otherwise, if the mara is only agile in specific situations (such as when there are convenient walls to use) there could still be a problem.

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #216 on: February 10, 2009, 02:20:18 AM »
Quote from: http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk/src/game/tremulous.h?revision=754&view=markup
#define LEVEL2_SPEED                1.2f
Quote from: http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/projects/mgdev/repository/entry/src/game/tremulous.h
#define LEVEL2_SPEED                1.2f
marauder speed is the same, and the 1.1 jump height is more a detriment than a benefit to actually gaining large speeds.

All I can speak for is how it 'feels'. If the mara is still/more agile and I'm just not using it right then that's fine. Otherwise, if the mara is only agile in specific situations (such as when there are convenient walls to use) there could still be a problem.
the (accidental, so it might be changed in the future) change to walljump makes *all* walls convenient.
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
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Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #217 on: February 10, 2009, 09:44:24 AM »
Perhaps a couple of demos could illustrate my point.

Any objections? Anyone interested?

Edit: Oh and btw, you've stopped the humans from bunny hopping after dodge? I LIKED that feature. Why stop something that's fun, fast and somewhat hard to master? (mastering it would mean being able to change direction quickly and react to threats while maintaining the hop)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 09:49:55 AM by Nux »

khalsa

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #218 on: February 10, 2009, 01:44:08 PM »
Updated by Norfenstein 15 days ago
This is just bunnyhopping starting with a dodge (which necessarily has to be sideways or backwards to start).

I've seen this maneuver done a few times in game and it feels really wrong for humans to be able to fly away from aliens so fast; stamina isn't enough of a limit.

So, considering that the whole point of human movement was to not have this sort of thing for humans, I would like to have it removed. I assume the same restriction (HUMAN_DODGE_TIMEOUT?) on re-dodging can be applied to jumping after a dodge?


^Why it was removed. More people need to share their opinions on the issue tracker, trust me - you CAN affect change (in fact several of the comments here have changed things)


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Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #219 on: February 10, 2009, 02:27:09 PM »
Ok thanks khalsa.

I'll try to use the issue tracker more but I'll mention here that for me it doesn't feel 'wrong'. Though it might not make much realism sense, it makes tonnes of gaming sense. Do you value realism more than gameplay?

I feel that having this ability could really help games become much more interesting once people get used to it. It might even help reduce camping if the humans can speed across the map like the aliens can.

Bear in mind that I am an experienced player, and enjoy the challenges of facing a fast target as much as being the fast target.

Idea: Would I be able to book the EuroMGDev server for some time between now and the next dev game? And would I be able to have the bunny-hop feature back to normal, as well as UL off and FF on? I would like to hold a few matches on it and am interested to see what scrims will be like with these fast humans (after a bit of practice with it). I won't mind spectators but I'd like to select who plays (top-clan members for added teamplay).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 02:28:56 PM by Nux »

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #220 on: February 10, 2009, 04:40:03 PM »
Perhaps a couple of demos could illustrate my point.

Any objections? Anyone interested?

Edit: Oh and btw, you've stopped the humans from bunny hopping after dodge? I LIKED that feature. Why stop something that's fun, fast and somewhat hard to master? (mastering it would mean being able to change direction quickly and react to threats while maintaining the hop)
mainly because getting 928 ups instantly was stupid.
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----

Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #221 on: February 10, 2009, 05:54:47 PM »
Is it stupid? I'd be impressed if a player can shoot accurately at such a speed and it would be hard to react very fast after you were unexpectedly blocked by an alien.

Seems to me going at high speeds isn't always a good thing. And if this bunny-hop is too good, I'd like to see it tweaked (slow them down or lower thier stamina) rather than stopped completely. How are we went to make progress if we don't try to refine rather than remove.

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #222 on: February 10, 2009, 11:20:50 PM »
Is it stupid? I'd be impressed if a player can shoot accurately at such a speed and it would be hard to react very fast after you were unexpectedly blocked by an alien.

Seems to me going at high speeds isn't always a good thing. And if this bunny-hop is too good, I'd like to see it tweaked (slow them down or lower thier stamina) rather than stopped completely. How are we went to make progress if we don't try to refine rather than remove.
it wasn't how dodge was meant to work, and things like reducing stamina are more limitting than this (3 jumps->6 has been one of the best received changes on trem.tjw.org and mgdev). i could clamp your velocity to 320 when you land a dodge, but then what's the point?
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----

Cadynum

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #223 on: February 10, 2009, 11:48:03 PM »
Nux, While fast is good indeed, that was an exploit, and imho allowing certain moves by exploiting physics is bad.
Those moves should be there by design if anything.
(No, i don't like stafejump either, even if i exploit it all the time :)

Edit: I really liked your idea on organized games btw, and i would of course participate.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 11:49:35 PM by Cadynum »

Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #224 on: February 11, 2009, 12:35:16 AM »
So long as the 'exploit' is fun, fair and well known I don't see any problem with it :]

Personally, I reserve the word 'exploit' for when such unexpected features are grossly unbalancing and not fun for anyone (barring the more sadistic kind of player). I don't see this as necessarily unfair and think it could be quite fun (as the dodger and the dodgee, alike).

Why should it matter if you intended to make lead when you ended up with gold?

Cadynum

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #225 on: February 11, 2009, 01:05:46 AM »
Of course, if it ended up as something good.
But does it really make sense being able to accelerate up to ridiculous speeds that fast? And does it look good when players dodge-jump around the map?
You can also only do it backwards which doesn't make any sense at all.

Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #226 on: February 11, 2009, 01:13:17 AM »
Well I'm willing to give it a chance :] Let's see if super-speedy-humans can make a clan-style match more interesting ;)

So can I has book?

khalsa

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #227 on: February 11, 2009, 01:18:16 AM »
Just pop into IRC when you want it and I'm sure it can be arranged then. We do most everything on IRC.


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kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #228 on: February 11, 2009, 04:07:38 AM »
Well I'm willing to give it a chance :] Let's see if super-speedy-humans can make a clan-style match more interesting ;)

So can I has book?
i've had this conversation so many times that i've lost count:
Code: [Select]
"pro" player: mgdev is broken in clan matches
me: would you like to play an actual match so we can see that and fix it?
"pro": no
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----

Lakitu7

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #229 on: February 11, 2009, 04:14:12 AM »
I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.

FreaK

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #230 on: February 11, 2009, 04:46:40 AM »
I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.

and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #231 on: February 11, 2009, 04:50:52 AM »
I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.

and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----

Annihilation

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #232 on: February 13, 2009, 02:36:06 AM »
I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.

and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)

I'll hop on IRC, I talked to Tmler breifly in game today about it.  I would love to get some regular >< vs AoD matches going on mg dev to see how it goes.  It wont do a whole lot considering >< will rape us, but at least we can see more of how the potential 1.2 clan matching will induce.
[11:33:20 PM] Kaine:
Quote from: KobraKaine
How do you perform goon-copulation if he doesn't play?
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FreaK

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #233 on: February 13, 2009, 02:38:37 AM »
I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.

and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)

I'll hop on IRC, I talked to Tmler breifly in game today about it.  I would love to get some regular >< vs AoD matches going on mg dev to see how it goes.  It wont do a whole lot considering >< will rape us, but at least we can see more of how the potential 1.2 clan matching will induce.

would be fun, we could switch it up and do some pickup games too.

Annihilation

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #234 on: February 13, 2009, 02:49:14 AM »
I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.

and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)

I'll hop on IRC, I talked to Tmler breifly in game today about it.  I would love to get some regular >< vs AoD matches going on mg dev to see how it goes.  It wont do a whole lot considering >< will rape us, but at least we can see more of how the potential 1.2 clan matching will induce.

would be fun, we could switch it up and do some pickup games too.
Yeah great idea, I'll make a post on your forums since we don't currently have one and see about setting up some times.

Then I'll see what AoDians I can round up from msn/aim.
[11:33:20 PM] Kaine:
Quote from: KobraKaine
How do you perform goon-copulation if he doesn't play?
Quote from: PowerOverwhelming
We just get on VC and listen to camels dying until we orgasm

Stannum

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #235 on: February 14, 2009, 03:17:57 AM »
Stuff about t3 being boring

I agree with this. t3 seems a bit boring, the t1/t2 stage is more fun.

Not sure how to fix this though. Adding 'flavour' to t3 is pretty vague :(

Blue 2004 Natural Selection.

temple

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #236 on: February 14, 2009, 04:25:58 AM »
Totally agree.  Stages 1 and 2 are always more fun than stage 3.

I'll bitch one last time then leave this 1.2 issue alone forever.   I'd be a whole lot more excited for the changes if something was finally done to stop human camping.  I know all the arguments about alien regeneration and the counter balance of having slower rets.  But nerfing alien regeneration is just that, a nerf.  A pretty one-sided nerf.  Humans don't have to change anything about how they play, in fact, camping is just as effective as before.  Aliens are left with an even stepper hill to climb to beat a less skilled human team that can just spam from inside the base indefinitely. 

The devs have a pretty hard solution to stop aliens from corner camping but nothing to stop humans from base camping.  Any justification you can use to avoid addressing this imbalance can be used to justify faster alien regeneration.

khalsa

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #237 on: February 14, 2009, 06:47:17 AM »
Totally agree.  Stages 1 and 2 are always more fun than stage 3.

I'll bitch one last time then leave this 1.2 issue alone forever.   I'd be a whole lot more excited for the changes if something was finally done to stop human camping.  I know all the arguments about alien regeneration and the counter balance of having slower rets.  But nerfing alien regeneration is just that, a nerf.  A pretty one-sided nerf.  Humans don't have to change anything about how they play, in fact, camping is just as effective as before.  Aliens are left with an even stepper hill to climb to beat a less skilled human team that can just spam from inside the base indefinitely. 

The devs have a pretty hard solution to stop aliens from corner camping but nothing to stop humans from base camping.  Any justification you can use to avoid addressing this imbalance can be used to justify faster alien regeneration.

Lies. Humans camping = Humans dead/feeding.
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Nux

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #238 on: February 14, 2009, 02:48:16 PM »
Lies. Humans camping = Humans dead/feeding.

I would agree with you if the camping humans can't dodge because they're crammed together with thier compact base.

However, with more spaced out defenses the humans are free to dodge if they choose and only benefit from the defenses around them. Funnily enough, it's this spaced out layout that I'm told- by devs and supporters alike -allows the new turrets to be much more effective.

khalsa

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #239 on: February 14, 2009, 03:06:36 PM »
However, with more spaced out defenses the humans are free to dodge if they choose and only benefit from the defenses around them. Funnily enough, it's this spaced out layout that I'm told- by devs and supporters alike -allows the new turrets to be much more effective.

Truths! However unlike in 1.1 where a well made base + camping humans = impenetrable defence, a planned attack can still take camping humans out (I've done it a plenitude of times [Admittedly not in the last 3 weeks though, so maybe it's changed])

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