Advanced Map Patch (v0.1)

[==Troy==]

Hello,

To start with. I am more of a mapper than a coder. But recently, I was quite tired of mapping and switched to coding side of Tremulous.

The interesting side of coding for me were the triggers and targets part of the QVM. As I have also questioned their behaviour in a topic before, and did not really get any reply, I still managed to figure them out to some extent.

To the point : Advanced Map Patch is meant to allow you to use new triggers/targets/functions in the map as a mapper, without any coding required. It is only server-side QVM, so if a server wants to run such map they will have to install the patch.

What is done? :

Trigger_multipe now has a counter and reset timer. For example, you have 2 buttons, the counter is set to 2, and reset timer is set to 10, if 1 button will be pressed, the trigger will not trigger it's target unless the second button pressed in the 10 seconds after the first one was.

Target_misc is a new target, which can spawn a buildable if triggered. (someone built RC in a certain area? Hey, why not give them a start-up on a base?)

What is in the plans? :

IF function, which triggers it's target if it has been triggered AND the IF condition applies.
RESET trigger, which resets any trigger/target to initial conditions (delay > < delay loop can be broken by this)
Workaround for the looping sound bug.
An ability to add/reduce buildpoints and stages for a team by a targets.



Well, and the question is, do you need it? I would not really like to start a 2-3 months project just to find out that the basic idea was crap and noone would want to use it...

Thank you in advance, also, any suggestions are very welcomed, just bear in mind that attach-to-tag will take ages to implement.

[Survivor]

We actually have someone who wants to and can implement new triggers? WOOHOO. Let me dig up some topics me and soubok created ages ago about triggers.

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=1000.0

And a single trigger_hurt being able to hit more than one player at the same time. If you get this one you get a finished pulse by soubok. Because that's practically all he is waiting for.

[==Troy==]

Interesting...

I quite like some ideas, but some of them are beyond my level of skill yet, stages/buildpoints/evo/credit/equipment loss will be quite easy to implement.

Trigger_hurt and trains are going to be the hard part...

AND operation already can be used by the trigger_multiple countdowns. OR gate is a default state of logic in Tremulous (any trigger effect triggers the rest). XOR is something I am working on at this moment.

[TRaK]

I definitely like this idea. Mappers could definitely use some more ways to be creative, and I think tremulous gameplay could gain a lot from adding some variety to the gameplay options offered to players

[Lava Croft]

I just want to add to this that the amount of mappers that actually makes use of Tremulous' current possibilities is rather slim, but some extra triggers are more than welcome! Good work!

[==Troy==]

Lava, none of the triggers that are available now can produce even a slight intention of an objective-based map

Update on the progress :

Target_misc can now :
Spawn a buildable
Change stage of a team
Change stage threshold of a team
Change or add/reduce buildpoints of a team.

Once I will polish the code and get a patch-making running, I will release qvm and a patch for it, and call it a version 0.1 ^^

I would also be grateful if anyone could help me with testing of those features, since all the testing that I am doing right now is a hollowed box with few triggers in and a spawn...

[Survivor]

Hmm, are you going to include a lot of options in one trigger? That would become a bugger to correctly identify triggers in complicated maps. But i guess subdividing them correctly can only be done when they're all finished.

[Lava Croft]

Lava, none of the triggers that are available now can produce even a slight intention of an objective-based map

What I meant is that most people have trouble creating decent looking/playing maps without advanced triggers, but this doesn't mean I do not have high hopes for the future. And your work is more than welcome, to me as much as to anyone desiring a bit more 'advanced' maps. Bidmix's Gloom mission maps anyone? Bugport for Tremulous would totally rock.

[TRaK]

I think one of the main reasons why there are no mission maps or heavily trigger-oriented maps in trem is because none of the default maps use any of those features. I also think there's also a very good chance that any mission-based maps that could come out in the future will be dismissed as an interesting gimmick by many players. Maybe that's just my pessimism shining through, though.

[==Troy==]

TRak, I am honestly tired of dumb maps in the "kill em all" style... No matter how the map looks, you always do exactly the same thing. I know all the "pro-player" whining that just want every map to be an atcs-like map... and thats why all the matches are being played @ atcs only..


I have completed a QVM (Lakitu7's 5.1 + mappatch) with the target_misc being able to spawn a buildable and change stages/buildpoints, and also trigger_multiple with counter, if anyone is interested in trying it out, pm me, since I am not yet able to make a proper release (still need to get how to make patches and clean them up), I will provide you with a QVM and a new definition file for the Radiant. Or give it 1-2 more days for a proper release.

[Survivor]

Actually troy, all the pro pro players agree that atcs is a map to be played, not the only one that should be played. Same way i'll tolerate playing atcs once in a while but more than twice in 5 maps and i'm off.

[==Troy==]

I do agree that there are a lot of arguments going around the atcs, but I was basing my reply on statistics of the matches played, rather than the future plans. And really, most of the pro's are conservative. But in anyway. I will get this to the proper release + add some features. Then everything will depend on how it has been taken.

[Supertanker]

Awsome!
I can't wait to try these.

Too bad it has to be server side though. Although it would be cool in Trem 1.2....

If possible, though, could you add something similar to half-life's multi_manager? It has a target name and then a key/value system that looks something like this for each thing you want to trigger:

[target1] - [time to trigger]
[target2] - [time to trigger]
[target1#1] - [time to trigger]

Because that would be awsome. I've got 8 target_delays right now for my blast door in place of one multi_manager

If you want inspiration for logic entities, you may want to take a look at the entities in Spirit of Half-Life and HL's master system. It's difficult to get the hang of but oh-so-powerful. Mostly. Kind of. It does take time though, I built a 5-floor elevator with moving elevator doors in Half-Life, and it took about 78(!) point entities. I don't want to imagine it in Tremulous. 2-floor? very doable. 5? no.

http://mercenariesguild.net/supertanker/entity.html

[==Troy==]

Normal release in mod section 

[Zero Ame]

Just a little curious but are any more versions of this going to be released? because I have ideas that would be great to be added into the next version

[==Troy==]

I am still working on it, but since after the release there was small to none reaction from mappers it is not the first thing I will be trying to make...

[Zero Ame]

O, i see, thats too bad, I think this has great potential

[n.o.s.brain]

l33tness! finally some coding improvements in the mapping area.  1.2 must include something like this.

have you figured out how to hack the health key to allow for destructible objects?  that would be probably the most fun for mappers, lol

[Zero Ame]

Thats what my idea was lol.
Like the game JKA has a func_destructable.

I dont know the key points of how it works, but basically you would take a bursh and make it a func_destructable and then hitting N you could put health for a key and then a number in for the value for its health points. And then there was also the key Material and you would put something such rock, metal, or glass and then it play sounds that sounded like glass being smashed when you would destoy it and it would have small models that would be covered in the original brushes texture that would break off and look like pieces to the brush.

[blood2.0]

This might be easy to impediment.  Target_make inviable.  maybe it changes the texture from the default  to glass.   

[Zero Ame]

O.o Huh?

[==Troy==]

Destructables can be theoretically done on server-side only mod, but it will require quite a lot of changes, as I have already mentioned in another thread, I have done some work on it, but did not get exactly what I wanted just yet

[your face]

I think it would be totally worth it!  Breakable objects FTW!

BTW, good job, troy! 

I wanna use it...

[kangounator]

One thing I would add is a brush that when triggered destroys every alien/humans buildings/players, that would allow to make mission maps where you have to touch a button, destroy a building or something ... That way when the objective is completed the defender team losses (kind of assault in UT), also you might want to ask soubok (Pulse is only a beta due to a lack of entities) for ideas. (1 team only trigger_heal ?)

[n.o.s.brain]

ok, so i put two buttons down,with 9999 wait, and targeted them to a trigger_multiple, with key:counter value:2 set, and wait set to 9999. but when i push the two buttons, the trigger multiple doesn't fire.  whats wrong?

[Zero Ame]

I have no idea whats with your trigger firing brain.

But with the destructable objects, I just found this out from the game jka and think it makes it even more worth adding them into the game.

Lets say you build a couple brushes into a lamp post or something. then you make the top of the lamp where light is emitted from a func_breakable(thats what JKA calls it). then you link the lamp to any lights that are to make the ligh it gives off.

When played in game, a person would shoot the lamp and when its destroyed, the light it was linked to turns off.

That right there could make the game so much better and have much more possibilities

[==Troy==]

ok, so i put two buttons down,with 9999 wait, and targeted them to a trigger_multiple, with key:counter value:2 set, and wait set to 9999. but when i push the two buttons, the trigger multiple doesn't fire.  whats wrong?

Did you use the QVM supplied with the definition list? you cannot use the features on a stock server.

and another wild guess, try to set the counter to 3?

EDIT : does the trigger_multiple has a target as well which it needs to fire?

buttons > trigger_multiple > particle effect.


@ Ame, that kind of thing will require even more coding than just a destructable.

First thing that is going to be done will be just an ability to spawn a "destructable" entity, with set bbox size and a model, nothing more. Its an ugly solution, but is a nice starting point.

[Taiyo.uk]

I've made pseudo-destructibles using a trigger_hurt that targets a func_door that opens very quickly and a particle system that spawns the appropriate rubble models.

[n.o.s.brain]

woot! i found out that if u set the counter to two, u need to trigger it 3 times.

[==Troy==]

thats what I was afraid of )). Always mess up with those things, due to 0 being a starting point Will fix it in the next version (not fix, but rather explain in the def file)

[MartinX3]

Thats what my idea was lol.
Like the game JKA has a func_destructable.

I dont know the key points of how it works, but basically you would take a bursh and make it a func_destructable and then hitting N you could put health for a key and then a number in for the value for its health points. And then there was also the key Material and you would put something such rock, metal, or glass and then it play sounds that sounded like glass being smashed when you would destoy it and it would have small models that would be covered in the original brushes texture that would break off and look like pieces to the brush.

You mean like in Quake 4, Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast and Jedi Knight 3: Jedi Academy?
There explode Walls.
And in JK3 i can destroy environment. XD
Funny when the big creatures come and destroy Walls, Cubes etc.
^^
Funny for Tremulous.

Edit.
Because the destroyable environment.
Look here.
http://www.haradirki.de/tutor/indextut15.htm
And translate it in english with google translator when you can't speak german. ^^

[Zero Ame]

No, its not the same for JKO and JKA, they dont have func_explosive, just func_breakable. I know you can add things to make explosions though

[Survivor]

See if you can add in a single shooter entity in the way of the plasma shooter of q3 so we can use skOre's mechanics/electronics.
http://quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36558

[==Troy==]

See if you can add in a single shooter entity in the way of the plasma shooter of q3 so we can use skOre's mechanics/electronics.
http://quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36558

The implementation suggested is quite creative indeed, but having the ability to modify a code, I would suggest rather making a normal gates, than the actual shooters which trigger buttons in the condition if the door is open.

Although the shooters are on the todo list as well... getting more time to code is there too

[Survivor]

I know, but i was guessing that it was easier to put back in a shooter entity instead of coding all the entities. If you do so, could you still try and include a single shooter entity, for convenience's sake. Maybe something which can fire a model which does damage when it hits in combination with the particle system or something.

[==Troy==]

It will be much easier for me to just trigger the shooter functions (the functions that operate such things as pulse rifle entities and such), so I can simply include all particle weapons which are in the game basically in 1 go in a shooter.

Although I would like some suggestions with the logic functions, my current thoughts are :

example, target_logic :
gate : AND/OR/XOR/NOT
targetname_a : first value
targetname_b : second value (if needed)
trigger if : changes from low to high, high to low, both.
target : target which is being triggered.

The problem with the current system is that you cannot have gates as they are in a proper electronics. Having a trigger triggering an AND gate every server frame to keep the value of an input at 1 will cause a huge amount of checks, resulting in a high CPU load, hence a triggered target will change its value (first triggering 0 to 1, second 1 to 0 etc.). Hence an actual NOT gate is quite useless.

If you have any better thoughts about the way it will be done, I will be glad to discuss them.

[Survivor]

Actually, I think people would prefer to have 4 separate kinds color-coded, Else you'll get a mazelike feeling in your logic networks and you have to go searching which ones are ifs and which ones xors, you know what i mean.
Also for all, make them at least be able to accept 4 incoming signals if at all possible. I know you can just do a Y-link of 3 ands to get the same result but it will just not be as spiffy when 4 is still a reasonable number to incorporate.

As for the shooter, a type of shooter with a fire-rate, weapon type and duration in addition to the basic settings seems pretty basic while not cluttering the menu too much.

[n.o.s.brain]

troy, would be pretty easy to implement a trigger_credits/evos? because that would help my map a bit... or maybe a workaround, i want to have an armoury that people can buy stuff for free at in the beginning of the game, but then later on, i want regular gameplay with buying stuff to resume.

[amt111]

And maybe work out what the bugs are in trigger_equipment. I can't seem to get it to work.

[==Troy==]

troy, would be pretty easy to implement a trigger_credits/evos? because that would help my map a bit... or maybe a workaround, i want to have an armoury that people can buy stuff for free at in the beginning of the game, but then later on, i want regular gameplay with buying stuff to resume.

You do have a trigger which gives credits/evos.

team trigger > trigger multiple > credit trigger will give them ~unlimited amount of credits to buy stuff from armory. If that will work for you?

[n.o.s.brain]

leet, i didnt know about that, tyty!

[==Troy==]

leet, i didnt know about that, tyty!

Uhh... its not AMP feature, it was there already

[MartinX3]

And now?
Will someone make a server-side mod for Tremulous for destroyable Walls?

[epsy]

Yes, not me

[Hugoagogo]

will scripts ever be introduced into tremulous

[Survivor]

Not a question to ask here, and not a question which will be answered in any appreciable time anyway.

[Zero Ame]

So are you still working on this Troy?

[Snake]

This version has been discontinued.

[MartinX3]

Other guys continued it.
He uploaded the .patch file and they downloaded it.
He said he discontinued and they continued.

They add more things in it.
Like destroyable walls or rooms where aliens automaticaly transform to another class.

Or humans can with the use key get weapons from the ground.

Or destructable things.

[Zero Ame]

where can i get it

[epsy]

ask a voodoo for it

[Survivor]

Speculation is all very nice. But this is currently going nowhere.