On Human Base Building

[n00b pl0x]

repeaters should still be hard to kill though...so you werent completely wrong

[ChaosSquirrel]

Human bases should be concise, but not clustered. That leads to one tyrant kills. Trust me, the allure of that "Tight Entry Base" is good, but it leads to a tight base area and:

A. Bad maneuverability. If the humans line up, one poisoned dretch can kill five. Trust me.
B. Tyrant rush. Never good. "Yeah! We survived that rush!"  "It was one rant"   "INCOMING"

Trust me. It happens.

[Revan]

B. Tyrant rush. Never good. "Yeah! We survived that rush!"  "It was one rant"   "INCOMING"

You forgot to put in what the first player says next:
"Oh Shit"
*n00b1 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b2 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b3 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b4 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
*n00b5 was mauled by 1337's Tyrant
"REACTOR! NODES!!!"
Aliens Win

[ChaosSquirrel]

Nah. He used harsher language! 

[Urcscumug]

Here's a human base on Karith, built in the corridor between the original location and the door to the courtyard. I've tried to make things hard to snipe (and if they have to snipe something let it be turrets), to spread the turrets around and cover all entrances and the space in between as well. Granted, it would need at least one dedicated builder and 2-3 defenders. Is it spectacularly stupid or does it have some merit?

[kevlarman]

Here's a human base on Karith, built in the corridor between the original location and the door to the courtyard. I've tried to make things hard to snipe (and if they have to snipe something let it be turrets), to spread the turrets around and cover all entrances and the space in between as well. Granted, it would need at least one dedicated builder and 2-3 defenders. Is it spectacularly stupid or does it have some merit?

this one is fairly standard, though it's traditionally built a lot more cramped (a good thing) with 100 build points. it's a decent safe move, but the slow door room is a much better location without much more risk (it puts your team in a very good position to attack all 3 of the traditional alien bases, and as they say, "the best defense is a good offense").

[Urcscumug]

Can you place structures on top of each other? Such as a telenode on top of the armory? Technically it shouldn't be possible (what happens if you decon the bottom structure) and I seem to recall I tried placing a turret on top of the reactor once and it didn't work.

Yet this pic seems to show a node on top of the armory.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Those nodes are above the armory, on the edge of the boxes.

[Urcscumug]

Figures. A turret on the RC would've been too sweet...

As it is, probably a good idea for protecting the RC is to place it agains a wall, preferrably a corner, and under a ledge or something that doesn't let anything bigger than a dretch fit on top of it.

The jumping ability and maneuvrability of goons in the hands of a skilled player is uncanny. I used to think for instance that placing nodes on the two U ledges in the default room on Tremor was a good idea. Until I got to spectate a goon who entered through the long corridor, passed the turrets without a care in the world, and destroyed both nodes, all in a matter of seconds. Luckily, the humans had a third node tucked sideways near the reactor, otherwise it would've pretty much been game over.

[mooseberry]

You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.

[kevlarman]

You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.

actually in older game.qvms you can get the bbox to fall too under very specific circumstances.

[mooseberry]

You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.

actually in older game.qvms you can get the bbox to fall too under very specific circumstances.

Oh yes, that too. Uncreation anyone?

[kevlarman]

You can sort of get buildings on top of each other. You can get the model to "slip" and be in a different spot from the actual bounding box. So they aren't actually stacked but they look like they are.

actually in older game.qvms you can get the bbox to fall too under very specific circumstances.

Oh yes, that too. Uncreation anyone?

iirc paper_cut figured out how to do it elsewhere.

[Urcscumug]

I saw something similar. On Tremor on the big platform in the human default room. Someone put medistation on the floor next to the platform and the armory up on the platform. Looked very much stacked. Using the medi was kinda difficult first time though, it only worked from up the platform at a certain angle. But it was quite untouchable otherwise.

[mooseberry]

Untouchable against aliens who do not learn and who target the model over and over again, yes.

[Urcscumug]

Well yeah. It's the same with humans who fire at the big bulb of an alien egg instead of the root.

[Urcscumug]

I've noticed a paranoid trend: you start building DC, people start shouting "no teslas! no teslas!" Hold on to your horses, it doesn't automatically mean I'm gonna decon all rets and put teslas in. Maybe I want a couple of teslas, maybe I just want the DC to make rets better. Give the builder some credit.

Is it a recent trend or it's just the 1st time I've seen it?

Oh, and a bonus: make a list of things that are wrong with this base.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Snipeable armory, very weak front rets. Oh and waaaay too high r_gamma. Tho it seems the RC is safe?

[janev]

-aliens can jump behind armoury and be pretty safe to take out node + arm.
-turrets stacked (they do not shoot through other turrets)
-turrets too close to the ledge
-reactor (arguably) too far forwards and not covering the armoury(the whole idea for putting the reactor in front of it)
-node placement
-little room to improve base as teams stage up because of the initial placement of buildings(you have to move pretty much everything to make it work).

As for the "no teslas" remark that is to be encouraged since 99% of builders do not know how to use teslas properly or how to place a DC.

[Urcscumug]

Speaking of ATCS, there's a pretty classic layout: move RC back against far wall, arm sideways in front of it, two nodes against far wall (see above pic), three turrets right in front of nodes, three rets between ledge and arm, and medi near arm.

Now, how the rest of the points are used depends on the circumstances. If there are many players you may want a 3rd node.

I personally like to put a couple of rets near the ramp that leads to human base. It's a corner that can be used by aliens with impunity unless guarded. Turrets will help keep it clean. (Obviously, they can't do the job alone, they need human assistance.)

As for DC, a nifty trick is to place it near the ledge, at the wall at the right of the human base, to block rants from getting to the base. Again, it needs heavy support from human soldiers and at least one full-time builder. Con: will get pounded a lot. Pro: can be rebuilt even during SD; and like I said, serves as rant-stopper.

Do not be fooled. The block, by itself, is feeble at best. A rant will take out the DC with two swipes, which means a second, tops. Depending on the amount of onslaught that the aliens are bringing on, it may be a good tactic or not.

I've seen it work well in a 6 on 6 game, but aliens had spent their evo foolishly and had only one rant and one goon+, which humans managed to keep at bay. I've also seen it work in a crazy 12 on 12 (or perhaps more, it was too hectic to count) where aliens came with as much as 3-4 rants at once plus assorted other classes but couldn't win thanks to superb defence from humans, including this DC trick, turrets in the corner like mentioned above, and 2-3 builders repairing and reconstructing at all times.

I admit I haven't used teslas much. Usually there's all sorts of thing you can use your BP on by the time S3 comes (in a balanced game, I mean). So I can only speak from theory, not practice. It seems to be teslas are good around corners, kinda like alien tubes; you need to make the aliens get close and get hit. Plus I remember hearing they zap through the walls?

Teslas also seem good in combos with turrets: tesla keeps turret from being attacked up close, ret keeps aliens at bay from a distance. A careful combination of turrets and teslas can probably make a base tougher, but I have yet to witness the proper ratio or placement. Teslas behind rets, probably.

[janev]

The traditionally correct way to use teslas is to hide the dc in a way so it can't be easily sniped(varies from map to map) and then use a few teslas to stop aliens pouncing/jumping into your base. The ratio of teslas to turrets depends on the map and the server BP cap. The knock back effect of the tesla keeps aliens from being able to jump over your primary line to get at vulnerable structures or to "turn" the turrets so as to make it easier for a new wave of attackers to get in easy hits as the turrets turn back.

[UniqPhoeniX]

DC isn't rebuildable during SD unless server is modded.

[Urcscumug]

I must've met it in too many places then and thought it was fairly standard.

[Myth]

DC isn't rebuildable during SD unless server is modded.

I'm pretty sure it is.

[janev]

I seem to recall that nothing was rebuildable during SD with "standard" settings. Standard in this case being 1.1 servers. On the other hand most servers are modded these days.

[PureNoob]

Could you tell your opinions about this human base on ATCS.  It is aimed to be quick to build if the aliens are very aggressive at start (couple of goons/maras at human base & all forward turrets killed) but still as effective as ipossible.



Can this turret shoot the RC hoppers down?



I will try to do a decent base for Tremor next because the default base is one of the worst in the whole game.

[Urcscumug]

PureNoob, first of all you have too many boxed turrets. A boxed ret means a ret whose line of fire is blocked by something else: other structures, mostly other turrets.

The ideal placement for turrets varies for different locations and situations, but in this case you want to think of how the aliens come in the base, which is entirely from the ledge. They may jump the ledge or come up the ramp, doesn't matter. What matters is you have a box with 5 walls and aliens coming from where the 6th is missing. The box is low and wide. The best turret layout in such a case is a line of them, stringing left to right and hugging closely the structures behind them (well, not too close, see more below).

Yours are not in a line, they are scattered around. Sure, the 5 in front are ok, but you are completely wasting the other 2. The one on the left is pretty badly boxed between those two others and the armory. The one in the back is boxed by the RC. They will almost never get to fire.

Now, about RC hopping. To place rets that "see" the top of the RC you need to consider very carefully the lines of fire. Practice in devmap, place rets, then turn goon and see which ones can fire at you. In your setup, I'm afraid that only 1 (one!) ret sees the RC top, the one in the middle of the line of five. Maybe the one on the right of it, but it may be too far. Obviously, just one ret is not enough, a goon will have a few good seconds in which to chew your RC.

And I fear that a mara, being smaller, may evade even that ret altogether, if he pulls back in the corner. Because the default RC placement on ATCS is quite bad, allowing a very nasty blind spot at the top, which is why most people try to move it back all the way into the corner ASAP.

And to answer your question, the turret behind the RC is mostly useless. It does not see the top of the RC. You have to realize that no matter how the models look, all things in trem are actually rectangular boxes. The RC may look like it's smaller at the top, but in reality the bounding box is as wide as the bottom all the way to the top. Think of it like a big crate.

You need a fair amount of practice as builder (or just spectating and observing turrets) before you start to accurately assess where to place turrets so they can cover certain places. If you place them too far they don't fire, if they're too close they can't "see" past the edges of the "crates".

And you have to realize how truly frightening a skilled goon can be. If he walks on top of your turrets (which have trouble tracking over-head) and never stands still, he has about 5 seconds of roaming around. That's time enough to get both nodes and probably arm too, depending on skill and luck.

So what you want to do is make sure as many turrets as possible hit the goon in the only moment he's fully exposed, and that's the moment he comes in over the ledge, into the box. A side-to-side line of turrets will do that, will deal maximum damage in the split second he needs to come in.

[Bissig]

I disagree. The turret on the backside of the Reactor has saved bases on ATCS more than one time. The aliens hopping the Reac usually move around a little. And in those cases f.e when the try to avoid getting shot by turrets from the front, this turret outputs enough damage to get them down in time.

[Urcscumug]

I'll grant you that it's better than nothing, IF you've been unable to move the RC. But if you end up relying on that turret, then you're doing it wrong (as a team).

It's much better if you do move the RC all the way into the corner, then place the arm flat against it so it minimizes boxing, then set up three turrets in such a way that they (1) hit aliens hard the moment they get over the ledge and (2) they all see the top of the RC and can pound it continuously.

The "ideal" ATCS human base setups are all variations on the same layout and plenty of pics of it (and youtube videos) can be found. I think there was even an "atcs tutorial" on youtube or similar.

[janev]

Protip: If you want to test a bases effectiveness i.e test if it has weakspots/blindspots and how many rets can hit what places try building it in devmap and then jumping around the base with different size aliens with godmode on. It takes the guessing out of it. If every angle is covered by 3-4 turrets you have a nice base.

@ Urcscumug lines of turrets generally fail. Aliens will jump on top of them and run along it chomping. Alternatively it will just go melee at the corners so that only the turrets closest to the alien will attack it.

Personally I feel the best base is the one where aliens have a hard time finding which is the best way to attack it i.e. which is the weakspot that a single alien can exploit. This usually means my bases change over time so that what worked last round will not work this time. What is an awesome base the first time your opponents sees it may not be awesome the second time. Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack.