Just for the record: Dretch Storm

[Hxaltai]

That still does not mean that there are any legal or social obligations to release the code. To clarify, there are no legal obligations because creating a closed-source mod does not violate the GPL since the mod does not include tremulous or IOQ3 code. There are no social obligations since the licensing terms of the code are the decision of the copyright holder(s), and not "everyone's".

Creating a closed-source mod does not violate the GPL IF the mod does not include tremulous code, but I'd imagine most mods are not written from scratch but as derived works of tremulous' GPL'd qvms.
That said, as previously noted by someone, the author of the mod is not distributing the game.qvm. Should the mod make use of a derived cgame.qvm/ui.qvm, source to them would need to be released as they are distributed to every connecting client, but it's not the case here.

[tehOen]

utter crap I dunno shit

afaik once it is GPL it belongs to the public. They cant change it but they can release another one and give it under another license. or they can give the same version under another license. but it is not the case they released quake3 under GPL. no one has the right to change the license of GPL'd quake3 it will always stay as GPL. so it belongs to the public. the original creaters can release other non GPL versions but it wont affect the status of GPL'd quake3

[Taiyo.uk]

FYI: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

As you can see, public property (i.e. code released into the public domain) and GPL'd code are two very different things.

[NiTRoX]

utter crap I dunno shit

afaik once it is GPL it belongs to the public. They cant change it but they can release another one and give it under another license. or they can give the same version under another license. but it is not the case they released quake3 under GPL. no one has the right to change the license of GPL'd quake3 it will always stay as GPL. so it belongs to the public. the original creaters can release other non GPL versions but it wont affect the status of GPL'd quake3

FYI: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

As you can see, public property (i.e. code released into the public domain) and GPL'd code are two very different things.

GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 3, 29 June 2007

N[/color]itrox"]Faggots

@ TehOen:

@ Taiyo.uk

@Tremulous Community:

[Taiyo.uk]

?

[David]

FYI: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

As you can see, public property (i.e. code released into the public domain) and GPL'd code are two very different things.

If it were public domain, he could do what he wants, but its not, its GPLv2, so he is bound by the GPL.

As it is, he doesn't have to release the source, but if he ever gives someone a binary with it, then he does.

So until he starts distributing binarys with no source, I couldn't give a fuck.

[Plague Bringer]

Let's bitch at every map maker that doesn't release their .map next, shall we?

Utter crap, I don't know shit"

This is a sensless, not to mention baseless, flame against GhostShell for not releasing something because he doesn't have to nor does he want to at the moment. Your whining, bitching, and moaning isn't going to make him want to release it any faster, either. From what I can see in that screenshot, you used chatspeak, which could be considered rude in such a "serious" request, while he responded in a polite fashion, taking the time to spell out all his words, and give you a definite answer.

As I have said before, he took the time to make it, that means he does respect Tremulous and it's community.

As Confess said, well, let me just put a huge fucking quote here:

How about this: It is his code. He spent hours writing it (or had someone do it for him). He's spent hours working on D*S. They are his modifications, and not yours. He, in no sense, legal or moral, has to give them out. If you think that by posting here you'll get it faster, or period for that matter, you are wrong. If I was him, I wouldnt let you have the source for the simple fact that you attempted to back him into a corner. To me, your actions honestly sound like that of a jerk. It seems as though your attempt was to start a flame war against ghostshell. You say that he 'doesnt have much respect for tremulous'...When, in all truth, he has probably done more for tremulous then you have or will ever.

Go bitch at the many (ex)servers with modifications (Banana's Unlimited had whacked out granger spit) who don't release their code. Hey, it's a mod, and they're not giving us their code, they must be assholes!

As I've said, your argument is baseless, not to mention flawed in countless ways. That and the fact that it is completely and totally wrong. He doesn't have to release his code if he doesn't want to. He said he'll release it in time, and goddammit he will. He's perfecting it before he releases it, hes ironing out the balance changes, and he's fixing it up. Let him work, and stop fucking annoying him. You'll be lucky if he ever releases the code after your badgering.

I'm sensing a patern here:
http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5552
Are you bitching out Timbo and the rest of the Tremulous devs for not giving us the code for 1.2 yet? Oh my god, they're running but one server with it, but they're keeping the source from us. They have to give us the source.

@NiTrOx - Please, don't become the next PFB. -_-;;

[tehOen]

I am a troll and I have no idea what I am talking about. I just post to increase my post count

then STFU

[NiTRoX]

P[/size]lague F Bringer"]@NiTrOx - Please, don't become the next PFB. -_-;;

Don't worry, I don't like men anyways.

[Plague Bringer]

TehOen, please don't insult me and ignore my point complety. You make me want to spam and grief you. Take a look at my post, along with the other posts here, and rethink your position in this argument. Stop proving my point that this forum is full of immature brats who can't hold a serious conversation for a few posts. Stay serious, rather, get serious, and before you insult me, read what I write, perhaps I made a point or two. But most importantly, grow up.

You too, NiTRoX.

@TehOen- And don't make me release a real screenshot of Timbo's PM inbox proving that you did spam him about the release of 1.2. He's got his PM's sorted weird, though.

[stalefries]

Disclaimer: I know very little about coding, and I have no idea exactly how mods work in Trem. With that out of the way...

That still does not mean that there are any legal or social obligations to release the code. To clarify, there are no legal obligations because creating a closed-source mod does not violate the GPL since the mod does not include tremulous or IOQ3 code.

But, there are legal obligations. Any program that links to a GPL program (in this case, a mod) must be released under the terms of the GPL also. This is why they created the LGPL; so that they could make libraries that anyone could use, without having to open-source their own code.

[benmachine]

I don't think anyone is trying to say that he is legally obliged to release, but it is the opinion of some people that to not release is mere selfishness, a frustration compounded by the fact that he doesn't really stand to gain from withholding it so it is really quite hard to understand why he keeps it from us.

Once more:

it is the opinion of some people

you all shouting at each other won't achieve shit.
(not that it ever does)

[ghostshell]

I don't read this forum as much as I would like, but someone said there were questions *again* about my server mods. I'm not sure why people even want or care about my mods because they are very simple and specific. But the truth is that the D*S servers are community driven (our website members) and I add/remove stuff when there's a consensus to do so. Other stuff I add selfishly because I like to tinker with stuff and test ideas. An example of crazy stuff I work on: add a mysql backend for user/ban maintenance. Who would use something like that besides me? No to mention that releasing stuff means that you (unknowingly and implicitly) have to make yourself available for questions/whines/criticism. Who has time for that? I'd rather be coding and playing games.

Btw, before you start throwing GPL and community and such, please get a clue. The GPL is not communism or a license to be a dick. The authors have rights and they are only required to release sources if they distribute a product based on GPL-licensed source. In legal terms this is called sand-boxing property. You can play alone in your sandbox as much as you want, but if you invite other kids to play, they must use your sand. I hope the juvenile metaphor helps with the understanding of the legalese (you should read the messages I get).

And please, keep my family out. They are not responsible for the messes I make If you really want to know me, send me an email or something.

[tuple]

Actually, I'd be very interested in a mysql backend for users/bans! GIMME GIMME GIMME!

Plague Bringer, the code for TJW's server is publicly available, how do you think I got the }MG{MercenariesGuild server to run it?  You do actually have to look for it though, it's not PM'd to all forum members  :roll: Not only is the code publicly available, but if you've ever played there you even have a copy of the graphic changes in .tremulous/tjw in the form of a pk3.  The patch file in there is old though (you know, the actual patch to make the TJW changes! ) so you need to go here to get the current one.  It took me a huge amount of work to find it, requiring ONE question in irc.

Ghostshell, I like you, but your server drives me insane   I personally have a somewhat irrational hatred of the thing were everyone becomes tyrants/bsuits, camps for a few minutes and then all the aliens die where they stand  :x  For me its like being at a great party that ends by being busted by the cops, somewhat exhilarating, but you still wish it wouldn't have happened.  So, there is my completely unbiased description of it    

Back to the important stuff.  A patch to store admins/bans in a mysql backend has great potential uses.  Sadly, my C skills are pretty much equivalent to my knowledge of sanskrit, and it isn't a language that is presently useful for work, so I haven't been able to justify the time spent learning it (learning python now, which I <3 )  Putting admins/bans in a DB backend I suspect would help this idea quite a bit.  I've also had an idea for sharing bans and potentially admins in another way, an idea which I go into incredibly boring detail here (that last one really only requires a mysql backend! )  I have no doubt that there are lots of ideas which you could benefit, and benefit from.

I understand you may want to hold some of your server changes close to the vest, but some of your backend changes may grow (or be fixed )  in novel and unforseen ways were you to release them.

edit: Hmm, if you're just parsing admin.dat, storing the info in mysql, then writing to it and refering to it as necessary...
Holy crap, I think I could do that! cool.  Release anyways!
Wow, thanks for the inspiration.

[David]

Also, if you release it, say if you don't want to be bugged about it and most people will have the decency to not bug you.

Also, if you release stuff people will help you! (And like you).

Like tuple said, mysql support could be very useful for a lot of people, so please do release if you get it working (or even if you dont)

[tehOen]

http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7376&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail

[David]

though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail

Why?
Lots of servers already run MySQL and Apache for tremstats.

[tuple]

http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7376&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail

This assumes
A. That that is the plan
and
B. That mysql and tremded are not already running on the same box successfully.

Also, there is an implied assumption that the tremded process would communicate directly with the DB, which may not be needed (see my edit above).
It may be that all we need is a patch that does readconfig before each map change to prevent a write to admin.dat by an external process that is lost when the map changes prior to the external process running a readconfig, or points to the new admin.dat.

[tehOen]

though running mysql and trem on the same box is teh fail

Why?
Lots of servers already run MySQL and Apache for tremstats.

OMG LAG LOL

[David]

Get a real server?

[tehOen]

Get a real server?

I dont think they are unreal
mysql is a resource hungry bitch

[David]

mysql is a 'resource hungry bitch' if you decide to do joins between tables with millions of tuples (snigger).

if all its doing is a "Select * from USERS where GUID=X" every time someone joins, then its no problem.

[ghostshell]

i have two main reasons for doing this: handle large number of users and store permanent data directly from the game. Sure, I could just dump strings to the log and parse the log afterwards (which I do now), but the information is not realtime and it's lost when players disconnect. with a db backend, i could store session info and restore it when the player gets back. of course, this will work only for guid'ed clients. although the idea has evolved from the last time i suggested, it's the ground work for a sophisticated XP system.

The original idea (has changed somewhat now, but it's close to this):
http://dretchstorm.com/node/752

just having a db backend opens a world of in-game possibilities. *head explodes*

if enough people agree this would benefit tremulous as a whole, i'd be happy to donate my work when it's semi-usable. although i think this should be more of an ioq3 patch, so that all games could benefit from it.

@tuple:
we hate games that end in draw, that's why we have Rampage after playing for 45mins, it's a bit disappointing when nobody wins. Rampage is meant as a compliment to Sudden Death. SD favors aliens mostly (proven statistically), Rampage favors humans.

[kevlarman]

i have two main reasons for doing this: handle large number of users and store permanent data directly from the game. Sure, I could just dump strings to the log and parse the log afterwards (which I do now), but the information is not realtime and it's lost when players disconnect. with a db backend, i could store session info and restore it when the player gets back. of course, this will work only for guid'ed clients. although the idea has evolved from the last time i suggested, it's the ground work for a sophisticated XP system.

The original idea (has changed somewhat now, but it's close to this):
http://dretchstorm.com/node/752

just having a db backend opens a world of in-game possibilities. *head explodes*

if enough people agree this would benefit tremulous as a whole, i'd be happy to donate my work when it's semi-usable. although i think this should be more of an ioq3 patch, so that all games could benefit from it.

@tuple:
we hate games that end in draw, that's why we have Rampage after playing for 45mins, it's a bit disappointing when nobody wins. Rampage is meant as a compliment to Sudden Death. SD favors aliens mostly (proven statistically), Rampage favors humans.

first of all, rampage is lame (so is sd, but it's sorta required, if you really want to make less games end in draw, take 50 hp off of tyrant so humans can *gasp* leave their base at alien s3, i've had countless games where humans were dominating, on the brink of victory, then the aliens get s3 and there is no way for the humans to get past the wall of tyrants). second of all, timbo and tjw are extremely reluctant to add client and server patches to tremulous directly (the only 2 that have been made so far are the rearrangement of the syscalls and 8 bit generic1->16 bit generic1), ioq3 will probably have issues with the patch because it introduces a new dependency (mysql) but it probably can work if you do it similarly to how libcurl is loaded now, and the biggest issue is that it looks like it will need either a new syscall for it to be used by the game code (not gonna happen) or moving (parts of)g_admin to the server binary. (and you might have better luck with sqllite than mysql, if you're really interested in getting the patch accepted you should ask tjw and timbo about what can and can't go into ioq3 more specifically)

[tuple]

@tuple:
we hate games that end in draw, that's why we have Rampage after playing for 45mins, it's a bit disappointing when nobody wins. Rampage is meant as a compliment to Sudden Death. SD favors aliens mostly (proven statistically), Rampage favors humans.

I guess as I see it, as soon as rampage mode starts, the game has effectively ended in a draw as the game is fundamentally changed, and is no longer the match you were playing.  With that other mode after rampage were aliens suffer damage till death, humans only have to camp to win.  I'd rather play to a draw against a tough opponent than have it end in some illusion of a match.  Part of the strategy of tremulous is to starve your opponent bit by bit, the rampage washes that away.  Many strategies up used up till SD vanish the moment rampage starts, changing it to a different game.  I suspect we will have to agree to disagree, and I will need to continue playing on other servers.  The frustration for me is just not worth it.

[tehOen]

bla bla bla
just having a db backend opens a world of in-game possibilities. *head explodes*

if enough people agree this would benefit tremulous as a whole, i'd be happy to donate my work when it's semi-usable. although i think this should be more of an ioq3 patch, so that all games could benefit from it.

at least dont lie to yourself. You will not release anything. I know it as I know my name.

[player1]

I know it as I know my name.

which one? :roll:

aliaswhore

lol, j/k, f0rqu3/bioxtc/vcxzet :eek:

[Plague Bringer]

theOne*

[ghostshell]

I guess as I see it, as soon as rampage mode starts, the game has effectively ended in a draw as the game is fundamentally changed, and is no longer the match you were playing.  With that other mode after rampage were aliens suffer damage till death, humans only have to camp to win.  I'd rather play to a draw against a tough opponent than have it end in some illusion of a match.  Part of the strategy of tremulous is to starve your opponent bit by bit, the rampage washes that away.  Many strategies up used up till SD vanish the moment rampage starts, changing it to a different game.  I suspect we will have to agree to disagree, and I will need to continue playing on other servers.  The frustration for me is just not worth it.

Not exactly, it's impossible for the game to end as draw. As it is now, most humans camp until they get S2, then aliens camp until they get S3, then humans camp until and during SD. If aliens have enough tyrants and adv. goons when SD arrives, they most likely won the game. Rampage levels the play field. There are no bases to protect and no team is guaranteed victory. The bsuits get auto heal and radar, which bring them up a notch to the level of tyrants (which of course the entire alien team will use). Rampage only lasts 5 minutes, taking the game to 60m. After 1 hour of playing, I consider that "enough" and bring the last plague from Egypt, which is the other mode you mentioned - Total Annihilation. This is basically poison for everyone alive, no regen to anyone. This will make the game last exactly 50seconds more. When TA arrives, no team is guaranteed victory. Cojones determines the winner. Hiding in a vent won't help. Of course, this turn of the Tremulous story is entirely plausible. The humans developed better bsuits (they have the technology) which they get @ Rampage. But the radiation from manufacturing them (or delivery) affected some native plants and they released a natural toxin to the environment as means of self preservation. So Aliens vs Humans have a new enemy: Alien Lettuce.

Like I said in my previous post, our changes are community-driven and tested. Most people love Rampage, some hate it, but still play it. It's specially fun when there's 2-3 players vs a full team and the underdog wins. It's like watching a gladiator match. I never intended|suggested|imagined|aspired for this mod to ever in a 1000 eons to make it to the main game. This is just what we do for fun. The original and basic rules of the game are still in place, just the end has been altered. The phrase "Timelimit hit" and its lack of closure, will never touch our server.

[player1]

My endgame idea.

Silly, ain't I?