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Author Topic: Security Breach -Biggest in Trem History?  (Read 18311 times)
Rawr


Turrets: +1/-1
Posts: 919


« on: February 15, 2007, 04:48:20 PM »

Quote from: Mario
As of Feb. 14, 2007 i've been informed that a Server Operator by the name of Pol (the one who controls the S11 Info server) has been !setleveling certain players with GUID's to gain access to their servers using their own GUID's. Because I was setleveled on his server, my GUID has been compromised and i've had no choice but to !setlevel myself to 0 for the time being. Servers across Tremulous have been attacked due to compromised GUID's of admins and operators. If you've been setleveled on his server then let me know immediately. I'll come back with more details soon to follow.



Pol has been stealing GUID's from who ever goes onto his server. My suggestion to you, Change your RCON, get a new GUID.

Note: The Dev's have been informed of this.
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Smokey


Turrets: +23/-58
Posts: 793

orly?


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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2007, 05:29:41 PM »

Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
Quote from: Mario
As of Feb. 14, 2007 i've been informed that a Server Operator by the name of Pol (the one who controls the S11 Info server) has been !setleveling certain players with GUID's to gain access to their servers using their own GUID's. Because I was setleveled on his server, my GUID has been compromised and i've had no choice but to !setlevel myself to 0 for the time being. Servers across Tremulous have been attacked due to compromised GUID's of admins and operators. If you've been setleveled on his server then let me know immediately. I'll come back with more details soon to follow.



Pol has been stealing GUID's from who ever goes onto his server. My suggestion to you, Change your RCON, get a new GUID.

Note: The Dev's have been informed of this.

He can't get your rcon password just by knowing your guid, and this is not at all new. Popupman has been known to do it for a while.
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vcxzet
Guest
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2007, 06:09:56 PM »

lol
and I thought I was evil
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-:GoDz:-Devil
Guest
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2007, 07:36:28 PM »

LOL he setlevel me, but I change my GUID ID daily, so I have np with it, and also, I am working on something that will change my guid I everytime I start trem and keep logs of all the guid's I use. I will keep you updated.
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Smokey


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Posts: 793

orly?


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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2007, 07:50:59 PM »

Quote from: "-:GoDz:-Devil"
LOL he setlevel me, but I change my GUID ID daily, so I have np with it, and also, I am working on something that will change my guid I everytime I start trem and keep logs of all the guid's I use. I will keep you updated.


Well, isn't that just pointless.
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vcxzet
Guest
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2007, 08:18:03 PM »

Quote from: "Smokey"
Quote from: "-:GoDz:-Devil"
LOL he setlevel me, but I change my GUID ID daily, so I have np with it, and also, I am working on something that will change my guid I everytime I start trem and keep logs of all the guid's I use. I will keep you updated.


Well, isn't that just pointless.

pointless as hell
looks like he is not admin anywhere Cheesy

yesterday was one of my better days
ip spoofing and guid take over

you should be thankful to polly This guid thing was known before but tjw didnt care till polly exploited it like crazy. then tjw fixed it . ie guid per server solution. and tjw also released the new binaries for using this

ip spoofing was something I was using( and I thought it did not work Tongue). Untill polly told me it is actually working. Then he reported to r1ch -> tjw fixed

actually he is useful to community. highly flamable though Tongue
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David
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David


« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2007, 09:44:24 PM »

Was he using his server S11 to get the GUIDs?
If so it should be permanently de-listed.
Just ban is IP from the master server. That'll teach him.
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Guest
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2007, 10:14:57 PM »

Quote from: "Smokey"
Quote from: "-:GoDz:-Devil"
LOL he setlevel me, but I change my GUID ID daily, so I have np with it, and also, I am working on something that will change my guid I everytime I start trem and keep logs of all the guid's I use. I will keep you updated.


Well, isn't that just pointless.


Na its not pointless, if you understood what I was doing you would get it.
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David
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David


« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2007, 10:22:12 PM »

Quote from: "-:GoDz:-Devil"
LOL he setlevel me, but I change my GUID ID daily, so I have np with it, and also, I am working on something that will change my guid I everytime I start trem and keep logs of all the guid's I use. I will keep you updated.


I was going to do that, but then TJW fixed it, so problem solved!
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.
FooBar


Turrets: +9/-1
Posts: 94


WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2007, 10:54:42 PM »

Just out of curiosity, why does the website for Pol's server (s11.info) redirect to (or at least display a copy of) tremulous.tjw.org?  That seems a little odd.
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vcxzet
Guest
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2007, 11:03:28 PM »

Quote from: "FooBar"
Just out of curiosity, why does the website for Pol's server (s11.info) redirect to (or at least display a copy of) tremulous.tjw.org?  That seems a little odd.

he is using tjw's stats php
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DieFamilyGuy


Turrets: +1/-0
Posts: 138


« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2007, 11:30:44 PM »

Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
Quote from: Mario
As of Feb. 14, 2007 i've been informed that a Server Operator by the name of Pol (the one who controls the S11 Info server) has been !setleveling certain players with GUID's to gain access to their servers using their own GUID's. Because I was setleveled on his server, my GUID has been compromised and i've had no choice but to !setlevel myself to 0 for the time being. Servers across Tremulous have been attacked due to compromised GUID's of admins and operators. If you've been setleveled on his server then let me know immediately. I'll come back with more details soon to follow.



Pol has been stealing GUID's from who ever goes onto his server. My suggestion to you, Change your RCON, get a new GUID.

Note: The Dev's have been informed of this.





pol....hmm i recognize that name....yeah he used to come on beer garden, knew something was fishy about him
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Stof


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Posts: 1344


« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2007, 11:38:16 PM »

Don't worry about RCON, they cannot be directly compromised like that. No need to be (more) parano´d than required.

Although the RCON password might be compromised if you gave it away to a hacker you though was a friend because he was using your friend GUID.
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TinMan


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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2007, 11:51:37 PM »

For those of you who need a new GUID, go into your tremulous/base/ and delete your QKEY file, the next time you play tremulous a new one will be generated and you will then have a new GUID.
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Caveman


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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2007, 11:53:45 PM »

If Pol(ly) knew his stuff then he also has the passwords for priv-slots if the player did not unset it when they did not need it ...
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Caveman


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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2007, 06:30:16 AM »

ok Smiley
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pollywannacrkr


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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2007, 06:34:38 AM »

Quote from: "Caveman"
stop that


o dam caveman ur hired.
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Caveman


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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2007, 07:14:42 AM »

Allways cite the source Tongue
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FooBar


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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2007, 08:32:38 AM »

Not that I have any affection for Pol at all, but I want to be the first to suggest that the moderators take down this information.  This kind of harassment is not acceptable.
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Stof


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Posts: 1344


« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2007, 10:04:49 AM »

Oh, was that harassement? It looked like spam so I kinda deleted it on sight :p

Don't go posting other users personal info here!
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.
Caveman


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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2007, 01:54:16 PM »

Information, freely available on Google, can't be harassment .) but if it's not wanted.... ok Smiley
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FooBar


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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2007, 02:51:46 PM »

Well, maybe not harassment, but perhaps it's incitement to harassment.  Smiley
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vcxzet
Guest
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2007, 02:54:41 PM »

Quote from: "Stof"
Oh, was that harassement? It looked like spam so I kinda deleted it on sight :p

Don't go posting other users personal info here!

we should all stay as Unfunny Anonymous Cowards
as stated in Interwebs rule number 2
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Stof


Turrets: +1/-1
Posts: 1344


« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2007, 03:16:54 PM »

Quote from: "vcxzet"
Quote from: "Stof"
Oh, was that harassement? It looked like spam so I kinda deleted it on sight :p

Don't go posting other users personal info here!

we should all stay as Unfunny Anonymous Cowards
as stated in Interwebs rule number 2

Do you mean that you are "pollywannacrkr"?

Btw, that account is posting from http://hidemyass.com/ and I sure bet it has been created specialy for those posts.
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.
khalsa
Administrator

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Dharam De rakhvalae


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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2007, 03:59:29 PM »

While I am opposed to the posting of polly's personal info here, I dont think ANYONE is going to feel sorry for you at this point.

Screw around with a tight-knit community - what do you think is going to happen? Especially when you have your whole life on google.

Pol: if your reading this i'd strongly suggest you stop whatever it is you're doing and apologize to those you've hurt. You may not realize, but people on the internet are crazy, and may do something "unfixable" to you.

A simple disagreement or misunderstanding (or ban for spamming) should not be grounds to permanently hurt someone.

Now basically everyone has your e-mail(s) so i'd simply suggest that if you have a problem wih you, to e-mail you or contact you otherwise to discuss these matters.

Lastly: I Strongly suggest that NO ONE go to the S11 server until everything is resolved, if even that.

Khalsa
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CU|CUdyin


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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2007, 05:35:58 PM »

IMO, every person who is farming full GUIDs is even worse than every deconner, so he/she/it should get banned from the master-server, if the whole thing can be proved.

Nevertheless, I've been once on S11, so I already changed my GUID (at least temporary).
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Pol
Guest
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2007, 07:43:03 PM »

Noob Thread -Biggest in Trem History?

NOPE! GUESS WHAT, I AM!
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gareth


Turrets: +38/-89
Posts: 710


« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2007, 07:57:32 PM »

Quote from: "Pol"
Noob Thread -Biggest in Trem History?

It is now.
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FooBar


Turrets: +9/-1
Posts: 94


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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2007, 09:12:17 PM »

Hey, Pol-- wondering when or whether you'd drop in here.

I'm curious, I'd like to know your side of the story.  I've seen a good amount of evidence from the other side suggesting that you basically took over another server by means of a stolen GUID.  I'm just wondering if you have another side to present: was it not you?  Was it someone totally different and you're the scapegoat?  Was it someone else with your IP or your computer?  Or have your actions been misrepresented?

Or did you do exactly what you were accused of, but for a legitimate reason?  I can't imagine a legitimate reason, but if you think you've got one I'd love to hear it.

Rather than throwing around bootless insults, why don't you enlighten us with your side of the story?
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Pol
Guest
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2007, 09:42:51 PM »

My side of the story?

Basically, it's fully expressed in my last post.

If you want more than that:

My side of the story is that it wouldn't really matter if I say it was me, not me, you, raWr, or anybody else.  Who would ever know with 100% certainty ?

I'm the S11.Info operator.  I maintain this server for the entertainment of myself, and the individuals who choose to play there.

I am not rapt in acting maliciously against any of my server's guests, or those of another server, or other server admins.

Tremulous's current GUID / ip userinfo system is obviously flawed.  Even tjw's latest 'new guid per server' hack is hardly worthy of the effort.  It needs a complete re haul, so I'd suggest to however's pissy at me for whatever reason would best to redirect their angst at someone like tjw, timbo, or careless server operators/admins.

By the way, pumpkin seeds are apparently good for the prostate.
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Plague Bringer


Turrets: +147/-187
Posts: 3812


« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2007, 09:47:51 PM »

notice how he (almost) completely avoided the topic and attempted to redirect all of the blame?
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U R A Q T
vcxzet
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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2007, 09:50:54 PM »

:evil:  Tongue
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benmachine

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« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2007, 09:56:32 PM »

Guys, I have a terrible confession to make...

...it was me who told Polly how to fake GUIDs. I didn't do it maliciously, it was mostly out of curiousity, and I needed someone to test it. Now, of course, if what you're saying is true, it seems pretty stupid that I trusted them, and for that I'm sorry.
Personally I haven't used the knowledge since that night for testing, I've been using my qkey GUID (which Polly knows, btw). Also of note: I discovered how after someone with an anomalous GUID connected to Polly's server and he/she came to #tremulous to ask about it. It is therefore possible that neither I nor Polly were the first people to discover this method, and you might thank Polly for publicizing it and allowing it to be fixed.
To be fair, the bugzilla report on it does credit Polly for bringing the bug to the attention of the reporter, so if it were not for your accusations, I'd still be assuming good faith.

edit: I just got the IRC logs: #tremulous and PM with polly (edit: removed for discussion of hax)
The #tremulous log contains everything I said to polly that night, so you might want to skip to the double line breaks I inserted if you don't care much about what we discussed initially (and tbh don't know why you would).
edit two: it seems there are some erroneous characters in those logs, something to do with character encoding I'd guess. I cba to fix it though, it's still readable. Suffice to say they weren't in the original.
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benmachine
vcxzet
Guest
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2007, 10:51:31 PM »

Quote from: "benmachine"
Also of note: I discovered how after someone with an anomalous GUID connected to Polly's server and he/she came to #tremulous to ask about it. It is therefore possible that neither I nor Polly were the first people to discover this method, and you might thank Polly for publicizing it and allowing it to be fixed.

DOH it was probably me with the anomalous guid. But I've never stolen anyone's guid (probably I would but I have no server)
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Pol
Guest
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2007, 12:19:25 AM »

Nope, it wasn't you.

And S11.Info doesn't steal GUIDs.
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Rawr


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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2007, 12:24:24 AM »

Lies.
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tuple

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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2007, 12:34:40 AM »

Quote from: "Pol"
My side of the story?My side of the story is that it wouldn't really matter if I say it was me, not me, you, raWr, or anybody else.  Who would ever know with 100% certainty ?

While it is true that we could in no way determine conclusively who was sitting behind the offending IP, the evidence that the source of the malicious behavior was in fact the IP that you use is pretty conclusive.  The likelihood that there was someone else using your computer, using your computer as a proxy or spoofing your IP is extremely small.  If that is in fact what has happened, you would have the proof that would clear your name.

Quote from: "Pol"

I am not rapt in acting maliciously against any of my server's guests, or those of another server, or other server admins.

We have no way of knowing this and it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote from: "Pol"

Tremulous's current GUID / ip userinfo system is obviously flawed.  Even tjw's latest 'new guid per server' hack is hardly worthy of the effort.

This is irrelevant.  If I leave my door unlocked, that does not give anyone permission to rob my house.  That many, many people knew of this vulnerability is common knowledge among many in the tremulous community.  That someone personally decided to take advantage of the vulnerability to act maliciously is in no way related.  Someone made a decision to act maliciously, the identity of that individual is the question here.
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Mario


Turrets: +16/-5
Posts: 127


« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2007, 02:37:17 AM »

The following screenshots are from the S11 Info Server. As you can see in the following image, the user with blank GUID's & player 4 with a default GUID are him:




Pol also denied being there at the time the event took place on Dretch Storm. All admins were set to level 0 and random players were given level 5 due to a compromised GUID. But the server operator of D*S (GhostShell) tells me that the following people had level 5 at the time from the thread http://dretchstorm.com/node/93:

Mr. Gumby   66.63.211.173
[COL]Jose   201.220.86.99
The Me [banana]   70.174.101.101
FireHazard@ubuntu   69.37.19.142
Newbie#27   65.110.228.135 <--- 1st person using !setlevel

Match the last ip of Newbie#27 to the blank GUID in the !namelog and tell me who you see...[/url]
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Ace1


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« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2007, 11:52:24 AM »

lol thats kinda true
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tuple

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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2007, 02:32:04 PM »

Ace1, quit posting stupid shit everywhere just to get you post count up, or at least get rid of that annoyingly large signature.
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David
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David


« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2007, 02:45:06 PM »

Quote from: "tuple"
Ace1, quit posting stupid shit everywhere just to get you post count up, or at least get rid of that annoyingly large signature.


preferably do both.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.
Plague Bringer


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« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2007, 04:56:41 PM »

Quote from: "David"
Quote from: "tuple"
Ace1, quit posting stupid shit everywhere just to get you post count up, or at least get rid of that annoyingly large signature.


preferably do both.

yeah, lol Tongue, who made that thing anyway? Deisel?
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Ace1


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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2007, 06:39:50 PM »

hey stfu and stop slabberin i am only tryin to help but use obusily dont like the compition
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Caveman


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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2007, 07:21:14 PM »

Quote from: "Ace1"
hey stfu and stop slabberin i am only tryin to help but use obusily dont like the compition

Anyone up to translate this into a readable form?
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AKAnotu


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Spoony Bard


« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2007, 07:53:27 PM »

Quote from: "Caveman"
Quote from: "Ace1"
hey stfu and stop slabberin i am only tryin to help but use obusily dont like the compition

Anyone up to translate this into a readable form?

stfu and stop slobbering i am only trying to help but you obviously don't like the competition
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Ace1


Turrets: +0/-0
Posts: 108


« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2007, 11:07:46 PM »

lol guys i am just a bit ticked off that i cant get m pot forwarding problem fixed so guys plz help me i am in need of any helkp to get my server up and runnin
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FooBar


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« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2007, 12:20:33 AM »

Ace, I'd be happy to help you with port forwarding in any spare time I have (not right now), but could you try to do a couple of things?  First, learn to spell and form complete sentences, and also, use punctuation.  Please!  Second, only post on a thread when you have a real point to make; don't just post to say "i agree" or something like that.

You're a nice guy and very earnest, and I guarantee that if you do those two things everyone around here will love you, or at least like you a lot more.

Thank you!
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benmachine

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« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2007, 01:09:18 AM »

Quote from: "Mario"
The following screenshots are from the S11 Info Server. As you can see in the following image, the user with blank GUID's & player 4 with a default GUID are him:

Sorry, please elaborate: as I can see? How can I see?
It could be anyone who knows the trick, unless I'm missing something...
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benmachine
Caveman


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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2007, 01:19:58 AM »

The trick is that that statement is wrong.
All we can see is 2 clients connected from the same IP, one with a none legit guid...
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Ace1


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« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2007, 12:35:51 PM »

Quote from: "FooBar"
Ace, I'd be happy to help you with port forwarding in any spare time I have (not right now), but could you try to do a couple of things?  First, learn to spell and form complete sentences, and also, use punctuation.  Please!  Second, only post on a thread when you have a real point to make; don't just post to say "i agree" or something like that.

You're a nice guy and very earnest, and I guarantee that if you do those two things everyone around here will love you, or at least like you a lot more.

Thank you!
Yes FooBar I will try and complete these requests you have made, and yes i should get on with everyone around here as i am very approchable as you have learnt and many others have as well if they have played with me. So sry everyone if i was a bit cheky. Cheesy
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img]http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6499/ace1ho5.jpg[/img]
Pol
Guest
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2007, 05:42:55 PM »

/s/approchable/approachable
/s/learnt/learned
/s/sry/sorry
/s/cheky/(cheeky|cheesy)
/s/Ace1/illiterate

BTW, Who the fuck is the moderator here?

...editing the content of my messages without my consent?

"NOPE! GUESS WHAT, I AM!"

...

Wtf is that shit?

Obviously this entire board is fucking moronic, being run by morons, and moderated by morons.

AND both the IRC channels on quakenet have the same exact problem.

The Tremulous community at large has to get it's fucking act together.

The game has potential, but you've certainly done your part in discouraging an intellectual contributor from wanting to even discuss it.

Take care, fuckers
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Smokey


Turrets: +23/-58
Posts: 793

orly?


WWW
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2007, 06:02:27 PM »

Quote from: "Pol"
/s/approchable/approachable
/s/learnt/learned
/s/sry/sorry
/s/cheky/(cheeky|cheesy)
/s/Ace1/illiterate

BTW, Who the fuck is the moderator here?

...editing the content of my messages without my consent?

"NOPE! GUESS WHAT, I AM!"

...

Wtf is that shit?

Obviously this entire board is fucking moronic, being run by morons, and moderated by morons.

AND both the IRC channels on quakenet have the same exact problem.

The Tremulous community at large has to get it's fucking act together.

The game has potential, but you've certainly done your part in discouraging an intellectual contributor from wanting to even discuss it.

Take care, fuckers

lol, anyone else remember that post with all his info? lewl.
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Caveman


Turrets: +93/-192
Posts: 2286


WWW
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2007, 02:00:44 AM »

Quote from: "Pol"
... intellectual contributor ...


If that was supposed to mean you, you phail. You can not even refrain from using fecal expressions and try to look down upon those that tried to help you.

Go outside and play with the rattlesnakes / cars in the traffic.
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Aliens' | Humans' | Wrath Public-CW

All other *wrath-server are copycats and not affiliated with us.

News/Status/Forum/Patches: http://wraths.dyndns.org
Stof


Turrets: +1/-1
Posts: 1344


« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2007, 08:57:51 AM »

Quote from: "Caveman"

Now, would you PLEASE stop that :evil:
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urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.
vcxzet
Guest
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2007, 09:09:29 AM »

Quote from: "Stof"

Quote from: "Stof"

Quote from: "Stof"
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Rawr


Turrets: +1/-1
Posts: 919


« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2007, 12:52:15 AM »

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Tongue
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TinMan


Turrets: +49/-70
Posts: 1020


WWW
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2007, 02:31:13 AM »

BAN HIM!
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Mac: ~/Library/Application\ Support/Tremulous/base/
Windows: C:\Documents and Settings\username\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\
NeonPulse
http://neonpulse.net/media/games/tremulous/base/autoexec.cfg
Ace1


Turrets: +0/-0
Posts: 108


« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2007, 04:36:47 PM »

lol tin. ban him incase he does it again.
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Rawr


Turrets: +1/-1
Posts: 919


« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2007, 11:36:18 PM »

Pol is now stealing }MG{'s Bandwidth OH KNOZ!
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khalsa
Administrator

*

Turrets: +187/-132
Posts: 596


Dharam De rakhvalae


WWW
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2007, 04:36:04 AM »

ZOMG! Not my Bandwidths!

Somebody should do something!

Note: The }MG{ Map mirror is open to all for public use, feel free to set your auto-downloads cvars of your server to http://www.mercenariesguild.net and for individuals looking for maps see: http://www.mercenariesguild.net/base/


Khalsa
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}MG{ Mercenariesguild
ਮਨੁ ਜੀਤੇ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤਿਆ
n00b pl0x


Turrets: +55/-168
Posts: 2415



« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2007, 04:42:08 AM »

lol in screen2 |DoA|Atcs is my server xD and how are your pings so low across the board like that?? your ping to my server is half the lowest ping i have on any server that i havent home hosted.
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will sort out my sig, or I will get banned.

HOW DO I SORTED SIG?
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