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Author Topic: Recent changes concerning mara zap  (Read 17096 times)
FreaK

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« on: August 11, 2011, 04:58:41 AM »

Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such  of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
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Vape


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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 05:04:06 AM »

Aliens won probably more than 15 games in a row by just marazapping. Ryanw4390 and some other knowledgeable players of the game built a good spread out human base many games in a row, it still got buhraped by marauders. gg zap
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Ryanw4390


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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 05:04:28 AM »

I was there for most of the games, usually on human team trying to come up with bases to prevent mara zapping. No matter how spread out the base was, mara zap would get the best of it. At some points, the bases would just be destroyed by simple S1 goon rushes since they were so spread out in an attempt to prevent the upcoming mara zap. It would be great to see something done about this as soon as possible, but I understand in the development team is busy.

What I hope doesn't happen is the waiting game, the waiting game to see if mara zap is truly overpowered by the analysis of statistics over a prolonged period. I hope the testimonials of players, the upcoming screen shots and videos, and the statistics from this evenings' games help show that something needs to be done immediately.
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K-otic


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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 05:11:52 AM »

It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
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ArrowBlade


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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 05:23:54 AM »

It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.

I think the quicker a mistake in one of the updates is found the better.

I was also in quite a few of those games where mara zap killed bases in a single rush and ended it in less than a minute also after the update pk and >< scrimmed and because of mara zap aliens won every round and ended in a tie. I really can't see mara zap being balanced at this point and think it definitely needs nerfed...
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 05:25:23 AM »

I didn't play as many as ryan and co, but i definitely agree, Zap seems way buffed, and it was borderline OP to start with.


Also, with the change to calculate the range from cubic to spherical, is it gaining range on the sides or loosing it at the corners?
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 05:28:24 AM »

Probably both, although if the number used is the same, it should lose area overall.
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Volt


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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 09:21:06 AM »

Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such  of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
<@Lakitu7> Norfenstein: I'm looking at this zap-bugs bug. Among other smaller things it fixes a bug where two maras could not zap the same target at once.

<Undeference> might make marauder rushes that much more effective?
<@Lakitu7> yes it might. that's why I'm bringing it up to him
<@Lakitu7> but it's probably something we thought/assumed always worked
<@Norfenstein> in general, things working the way everyone thinks they already work always will take precedence over short-term balance
<@Norfenstein> so yea, fix plz
<@Lakitu7> okay
<@Lakitu7> fwiw this works out to the fourth bugfix that is slightly in aliens' favor
<CapnWhales> Someone who has any say in balance really needs to come watch what that new mara zap patch did to the balance of this game. :l
<Undeference> it will be seen
<Undeference> probably not enough data to say anything about it yet even
<Undeference> if i'm reading this right, there have only been 57 recorded games since the change was made


Yea they knew it would tip balance in aliens favor to which extent still remains to be seen. It was a bug that after being fixed made zap more effective, they know about it and will figure something out.

It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
What he said^^
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 09:36:51 AM »

Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such  of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
might have gone better if you guys didnt have players run around trying to be billy badass with a blaster, and spinning in circles with the flamer.  your team tends to lose when you have more than one player fucking off in such a manner.

in addition aliens are now landing a lot of hits that they should have been getting but have not due to glitches.  this prolly results in aliens staging up a bit faster.

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CorSair


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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 04:11:12 PM »

I have watched few matches, and have been mostly spectating and watching human bases, and also recorded most of them. If you folks want, I can provide few demos. But I still think that I need better demos than current ones. Reason, no pro activity going. Tongue

My personal opinion of updated zap? I think people exaggerate the power of zap, probably. Maybe lower damage done by zap, if I see it's too powerful.

It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.
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/dev/humancontroller


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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 04:45:17 PM »

with the change to calculate the range from cubic to spherical, is it gaining range on the sides or loosing it at the corners?
Quote
<Norfenstein> can you explain how LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE of 200 gets a box 230x230x230?
<DevHC> the mins and maxs is (obscurely) set to (LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3)), which yields a box size of (2*LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), 2*LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3), 2*LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE/sqrt(3)), which is about 230x230x230
<Norfenstein> that's that VectorScale/Add/Subtract business in G_FindNewZapTarget?
<DevHC> yes
<Norfenstein> well anyway, the radius should be LEVEL2_AREAZAP_RANGE
<DevHC> roger
so the zap range has strictly increased, as ordered by norfie
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Vape


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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 06:58:45 PM »

For those of you quoting otic you might need a new sarcasm detector bros. Aliens are winning almost every game if they have 2 maybe 3 marauders rushing. I don't see why you feel the need to wait longer if a large portion of the community is complaining that this in fact overpowered. The balance of the game is already favored towards aliens so how can the devs not see that by buffing or "fixing a bug" that would make marauder rushes "that much more effective", AND increasing the zap range would be a terrible idea.

I have watched few matches, and have been mostly spectating and watching human bases, and also recorded most of them. If you folks want, I can provide few demos. But I still think that I need better demos than current ones. Reason, no pro activity going. Tongue

My personal opinion of updated zap? I think people exaggerate the power of zap, probably. Maybe lower damage done by zap, if I see it's too powerful.

It hasn't been too long since the change, let's wait a little longer before jumping to conclusions.

Seeing a few matches is hardly enough to give a valid opinion on the balance of something. Many of the people complaining and wanting it to be nerfed played dozens of games last night and experienced the overpowered bullshit that is marauder zap.

Recent in game updates have made games last six to ten minutes, or until aliens get stage 2. Marauder zapping should not be such  of a deciding factor in games if aliens easily obtain it at stage 2. In my opinion, you should tone down the current damage of the Marauder's zap or change it back to how it was before this update. Tremulous games just aren't fun if the game is decided over one alien upgrade and i'm sure everyone will agree.
might have gone better if you guys didnt have players run around trying to be billy badass with a blaster, and spinning in circles with the flamer.  your team tends to lose when you have more than one player fucking off in such a manner.

in addition aliens are now landing a lot of hits that they should have been getting but have not due to glitches.  this prolly results in aliens staging up a bit faster.



Don't recall you being there Mr. Decepitcon... for a series of games it was most of Xenocide, and I believe Tremulant (Hmmm?) on the human team. Even with "billy the blasters" that team with those skilled players is enough to win almost any public game, but yet every game they lost.

The aliens reaching s2 faster plays almost no part in the ability to own bases with zap other than aliens might get it a couple minutes sooner? Humans had Stage 2 before aliens on many of these games, but when aliens got a few Advanced Marauders it was game over.


When aliens are constantly winning scrims 4-0 there's obviously something wrong with the balance of the game. I'd be surprised if this doesn't get nerfed sometime soon.
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wolfbr


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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 07:28:39 PM »

or, maybe, improve the turret range(to compensate turrets stand ups time), i like the zap, its cool, and balanced vs humans(not vs buidables).
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OhaiReapd
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 07:31:50 PM »

For once Vape is right and not being a troll. What is this world coming to?
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Vape


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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 07:35:35 PM »

or, maybe, improve the turret range(to compensate turrets stand ups time), i like the zap, its cool, and balanced vs humans(not vs buidables).
It's main purpose is for buildables, not humans. So you just admitted that it's unbalanced.  Kiss
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2011, 08:02:22 PM »

Don't recall you being there Mr. Decepitcon... .
that's because i rarely play under my own name.  nice to see YOU'VE been playing under a variation of my name.  imitation is flattery and all that.

easier to not have to deal with folks wanting to carry on forum shit ingame.


i was there from game 13066 to game 13071.  would have stayed longer but i dont have uncreation downloaded, and i didnt want to download it.

it hasent been long enough.  if mara zap is nerfed, i expect the flamer to be similarly nerfed.  fair's fair, after all.
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Asvarox


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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 08:13:26 PM »

Weakening mara zap damage would have much heavier impact of single mara efficiency than few maras zap efficiency. In fact that would make single mara utterly useless while not fixing mass rush OPness. So I guess it's not the way (taking in mind that single mara rushes are not capable of winning games anyway).

I also have yet to see said OPness (yet I don't think it's overreacted basing on explanation of the recent changes).
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2011, 08:33:18 PM »

Easiest fix? Lower the radius of the sphere. Instead of 200 or whatever, try 100. Or something. Lower the radius somehow so it isn't as cheap. Have the volume of the sphere be the same as the volume of the old cube, perhaps?
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2011, 09:11:36 PM »

In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.

It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.
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OhaiReapd
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2011, 10:01:40 PM »

In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.

It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.

tl;dr for you guys?

Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2011, 10:08:52 PM »

Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.

No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does. Let the games play out as they normally do over a couple of months and then the developers will have enough balance information to introduce other changes.

Personally, I'd suggest making turrets a little more responsive to deal with rapidly jumping maras. Not more damage, but perhaps a faster turn rate?
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OhaiReapd
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2011, 10:13:29 PM »

Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.

No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does. Let the games play out as they normally do over a couple of months and then the developers will have enough balance information to introduce other changes.

Personally, I'd suggest making turrets a little more responsive to deal with rapidly jumping maras. Not more damage, but perhaps a faster turn rate?

I'd rather just bring back 1.1 turrets. Or make it faster charge rate, AND then have the dcc make the rets 1.1 rets.
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2011, 10:17:57 PM »

I'd rather just bring back 1.1 turrets. Or make it faster charge rate, AND then have the dcc make the rets 1.1 rets.

Then we're back to square 1 when it comes to the old style of camping for a half hour during scrims. No.

Defenses should only receive minor bonuses, like a slightly better turn rate, maybe even only on the vertical axis. Any other human bonuses should be applied to weapons or to the humans themselves.
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Vape


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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2011, 10:44:57 PM »

In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.

It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.

When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference? The problem with you Developers is you rely too much on "sufficient data" rather than playing the game for yourself and trusting members of the community that have been around for several years and stayed loyal to this game even though you developers continue to toss our opinions and ideas on how to make this game more enjoyable and balanced to the side and go with whatever you want. It's amazing how people wonder what happened to this game, where'd all the players go? Where'd the clan scene go? Just take one look at the forums and posts made my developers and it's not hard to figure out why this game is dying. People will back you up with the excuse "They're doing it for free, make your own game if you don't like this one." and that's the kind of attitude and logic that made players leave this once good and enjoyable game. You also don't have to be doing this for shits and giggles. I look on this website, and see no advertisements. To my knowledge advertising a bit would be an easy to make money. (Look at UrbanTerror's website, a game that is also broken, but the developers actually keep us updated and do work)

The community in this game has been getting ignored for years now, and it's amazing how you developers even have a loyal community that still plays this game. The testimonies of several skilled and respected players have been saying that zap is a bit overpowered for awhile now, and you go and buff it to the point where aliens are winning 62.7% of the games,and you're not fixing it because there isn't sufficient amount of data to back up these accusations? One team is winning nearly 63% of games because of something that is overpowered, players are complaining, scrims are resulting in ties because both teams are winning aliens, do you need more data from a game in which you yourself rarely play? Your ego, flawed logic, and reasoning has made this game what it is today (not a compliment)
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2011, 11:09:56 PM »

When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference?

He plays every now and then under an alias, if that counts?

/shrug
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Celestial_Rage


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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2011, 11:22:58 PM »

I think what it comes down to is whether you use pubgames stats or scrim feedback to determine balance. As demonstrated by Xenocide, having even a few players who are able to communicate and coordinate a rush with each other (they do not even have to be particularly skilled), aliens will be able to take out most human bases.

However, with the current players, even getting 3 players to work together can be a challenge and most of the day, players just run around killing without attempting to make organized base rushes.

In a competitive scrim environment, this is not the case since teamwork is essential and the mara zap reigns supreme because maras are fairly cheap and easy to dodge with. That makes taking out human bases trivial.
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2011, 11:39:11 PM »



tl;dr for you guys?

Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.
that didnt work with the flamer.
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Ryanw4390


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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2011, 12:05:23 AM »

I'm not sure what the goal is here in terms of balancing the game, but I was always under the assumption the first priority was balance in competitive games. Right now, whether we're talking about a simple pick up game or a full blown clan match, mara zap is EXTREMELY over powered. Even in uncoordinated public games, the 16 game winning streak by aliens showed us that it really only takes 2 or 3 people on the team with basic communication skills to make this work every time. I don't mean to be rude, but looking at statistics vs playing the game regularly will give you a much better idea at what we are dealing with.
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2011, 12:09:51 AM »

Let me reiterate that rushing to try to solve an issue without knowing its severity can be very harmful.


Here's the problem with you: you assume that because you perceive something, it is exactly how you think it is. That, combined with wilful ignorance of any evidence, and an ego the size of Russia, is not helpful. Tone down the arrogance, stop being defensive about your conspiracy theories, and then maybe The Illuminati Developers will pay attention to you as you think is your due.

He plays every now and then under an alias, if that counts?
I play more than you know.
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2011, 12:10:43 AM »

I'm not sure what the goal is here in terms of balancing the game, but I was always under the assumption the first priority was balance in competitive games.
i doubt that is the case, otherwise data would not be taken seriously from US1, and the actual server that provided the data would be a clan server.
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