Stuff to make a HD tremulous

[Tremulant]

So, rotacak, since everyone wants the xreal port for better FPS on modern hardware(well, not everyone but a number of this lot), how does your framerate compare between the UE3 trem clone and standard trem at the same res, is it a dramatic improvement?

[Pazuzu]

Unless its free, UE3 is a waste of time, even if it makes you computer shit lollipops.

His point is that Tremulous looks better on other engines.
If you want, I'll see if I can make some normal maps for ATCS textures. Then we can see how it would look with bump-mapping.

[Thorn]

Been there, pretty mediocre. Normalmaps + Low resolution textures do not work well.

[jm82792]

So I downloaded basically the whole SVN "thing" (yes I don't know much, and I need to read more. What a joy) a gig and a half in all.
From what I can understand it needs to be (eventually) compiled although it plays uncompiled.
There is a tremulous branch although I am not sure how to get it to work and I'm trying to understand the structure of XReal. I do not know where it would see mods, it could be as as easy as putting the trem patch/mod in the correct place since it RUNS with XReal and is made to work. My friend knows more than I do but both of us don't know much regarding development., but with enough reading anything is possible.

If we can get the mod to work and everything checks out then we can redo a map(materials, etc),
high res textures with proper licensing (that will be easy, NOT) and finally see what happens then utilize as much of XReal's features while making everything looking good.
From what I can see 2 maps are playable with XReal, if I get the branch to work
(I'm emailing a dev in a minute, hopefully I'm not wasting his time) then we have 2 maps to see how they work for XReal and why. dissecting something that works is always better than nothing)

Remaking assets(Aliens humans etc) is something you shouldn't be able to mess up and is rather straight forward,
especially since it's MD5's But being straight forward doesn't mean it won't take time.

[rotacak]

So, rotacak, since everyone wants the xreal port for better FPS on modern hardware(well, not everyone but a number of this lot), how does your framerate compare between the UE3 trem clone and standard trem at the same res, is it a dramatic improvement?

Well, everyone want xreal port because it is "easy" and multiplatform. But how I see, xreal have no physics engine and would be nice to have some new features with new engine than only graphic - like destructive enviroment, clothes, vehicles, physics buildables (you can throw barrel on dretch and crush him etc.). And xreal community is very small (look at their forum), same with new releases.

Comparing framerate will be difficult because it depends on map.

[jm82792]

Well you can integrate Bullet into it somehow.
Honestly physics are nice but your getting far too picky and separated from the current reality of what we have to work with.

[rotacak]

I not saying that I want to make immediately vehicles etc. But that are possibilities. Everything is already inside this engine.

[Tremulant]

Comparing framerate will be difficult because it depends on map.

Go ahead and use ATCS for the comparison...

[harraps]

Unless its free, UE3 is a waste of time, even if it makes you computer shit lollipops.

His point is that Tremulous looks better on other engines.
If you want, I'll see if I can make some normal maps for ATCS textures. Then we can see how it would look with bump-mapping.

Can I give you an advice?
Try to use original texture and turn them in black and white and then in normal maps with the gimp
before doing hard work. I think it could help you.

[Pazuzu]

Unless its free, UE3 is a waste of time, even if it makes you computer shit lollipops.

His point is that Tremulous looks better on other engines.
If you want, I'll see if I can make some normal maps for ATCS textures. Then we can see how it would look with bump-mapping.

Can I give you an advice?
Try to use original texture and turn them in black and white and then in normal maps with the gimp

1) I know.
2) Trust me, I know. The only other real way to make normal maps would be to build them with a modeling program, then bake and export them, and that would take forever.
3) Normal maps are purple, not black and white.

[rotacak]

Comparing framerate will be difficult because it depends on map.

Go ahead and use ATCS for the comparison...

But that will be Q3 vs U3, not xreal VS U3.

Anyway (1920x1080, fullscreen, one player):
U3: 180 fps (and I forgot to turn off motion blur)
Q3 Tremulous: 600 fps
Q3 Tremulous (def. layout): 450 fps
Q3 Tremulous (def. layout + 10 turrets): 330 fps

I can try to simulate turrets on U3 later.

[Pazuzu]

Motion blur makes a lot of difference. Try it with the exact same graphic options (ie same filtering, no blur, same texture quality).

[CATAHA]

I think comparing Q3 with U3 pointless, just because those engines have different possibilities. If you talking only about speed, then Wolfensten3D is our choice for sure. But good project need not only speed, it need good balance between Speed and Quality.

[Tremulant]

But that will be Q3 vs U3, not xreal VS U3.

That's quite alright, it's a test of a modern 3D engine versus the antiquated ioq3, choking on its various bottlenecks, we don't need a direct comparison with xreal here, afterall the main reason people seem to want a quick and dirty port to xreal is for the much needed potential performance gain on those machines with modern graphics cards(this may not make much sense but hey).

cataha, are you seeing much difference at this stage, quality wise?

[CATAHA]

cataha, are you seeing much difference at this stage, quality wise?

Yes, even in editor:

I rebuilded it piece by piece. Textures are ugly ATCS default without any effects.

Look at model shadows. In Q3/Trem we have no proper shadows from models. Actually we cant compare those two engines properly, they base and possibilities too different.

[Tremulant]

A dretch casting a shadow is a massive visual improvement that makes framerate comparison meaningless?

[Tamaru]

this is in UDK, making it completely free and ope to whoever wants it.


and ye, bumpmaps would be nice, maybe a whole do-over of a map in UDK

[CATAHA]

Q3 and U3 shadow processing very different. U3 shadows placed with effects and on proper brushes. Q3 even have no real shadows, just closer 'simulation'. Thats difference. And im not talking about world shadows, Q3 have static one.
Anyway... dont look at pictures, look at code. How many stages in shaders, etc. If you wanna real comparsion - get Q3 fps, then make same scene in U3 and include more and more effects and improvements till fps drop to Q3 value. Compare screenshots then to feel real difference.

[Tremulant]

All i want is a comparison of framerates for two scenes that look similar enough, don't care about code or possibilities for increased awesomeness.

You're describing UDK as "free and ope[n]", are you sure it tallies with popular definitions of free and open in use around here?

[CATAHA]

Well, than i gonna take off, because 'similar enough' too judgmental for me. Especially when we talking about realtime-render engine, not about photos. With ur judgement statements Q3 obviously better than U3, because it faster. No offence, its fact.
P.S. I still can be wrong if U3 optimized for modern videocards or something else. But i bet on Q3. =}

[Tremulant]

But hadn't the zomg xreal crowd already decided that a port to xreal would give a massive performance boost from simply taking advantage of modern gpu features? surely UE3 will have a similar base advantage before it starts wasting time on pretty effects that we can't really see?

[Pazuzu]

But hadn't the zomg xreal crowd already decided that a port to xreal would give a massive performance boost from simply taking advantage of modern gpu features? surely UE3 will have a similar base advantage before it starts wasting time on pretty effects that we can't really see?

That reminds me, what about Sauerbraten? A port would take forever, but I'd really want to see an ATCS-versus-ATCS comparison for Sauer.
EDIT: rotacak, how are you getting 600? Isn't there a maximum framerate in Tremulous, and if there is, how do you disable it?

[CATAHA]

But hadn't the zomg xreal crowd already decided that a port to xreal would give a massive performance boost from simply taking advantage of modern gpu features? surely UE3 will have a similar base advantage before it starts wasting time on pretty effects that we can't really see?

So we taling about U3 vs Q3 or about XReal vs Q3? If about XReal vs Q3, then obviously XReal pwn. But dont compare XReal with U3, because U3 more wide-purpose engine, than Xreal, which was created especially for Quake-like shooter. It have no those unnecessary features, that we dont need in trem (face animation, special plants/trees processing, cloth animation, etc)

[Tremulant]

what? so when UE3's not performing any of those extra special effects it still suffers as a result of supporting the option for them? wow, it must be very poorly put together. Hey, or are we back onto pointless speculation again?

[jm82792]

But hadn't the zomg xreal crowd already decided that a port to xreal would give a massive performance boost from simply taking advantage of modern gpu features? surely UE3 will have a similar base advantage before it starts wasting time on pretty effects that we can't really see?

So we taling about U3 vs Q3 or about XReal vs Q3? If about XReal vs Q3, then obviously XReal pwn. But dont compare XReal with U3, because U3 more wide-purpose engine, than Xreal, which was created especially for Quake-like shooter. It have no those unnecessary features, that we dont need in trem (face animation, special plants/trees processing, cloth animation, etc)

The biggest issue is this.
Porting is a pain, and getting Trem to XReal is a hard thing to do for people who have a life and a job.
Take something that would need a total recode such as U3 and the chance of porting plummets to almost nothing.

[freezway]

But hadn't the zomg xreal crowd already decided that a port to xreal would give a massive performance boost from simply taking advantage of modern gpu features? surely UE3 will have a similar base advantage before it starts wasting time on pretty effects that we can't really see?

That reminds me, what about Sauerbraten? A port would take forever, but I'd really want to see an ATCS-versus-ATCS comparison for Sauer.
EDIT: rotacak, how are you getting 600? Isn't there a maximum framerate in Tremulous, and if there is, how do you disable it?

/com_maxfps is the cvar you want, but you lag out if u set it to 0 (unlim)

[Odin]

Every few months there's a thread just like this, which makes me somewhat hoping for an XreaL port of Trem. Every one of these threads ends disappointingly with nothing.

Until someone(with actual knowledge in how this stuff works) does something to make that a reality, you're wasting your time.

[jm82792]

Yes I know what you mean.
I'm a want to be 3D artists that's decent at some things.
I'm trying to prod around and see what happens.
Although I am personally trying to get it off the ground but I am far from being any form of a software developer.
The XReal status is this.
There is a patch, it works, I need to somehow compile it.
Many people have compiled it and I have an idea of how but I'm not sure exactly how.
When it's compiled we can expand it since from what I can understand it's bare bones.
Someone who knows software development thinks I'm an idiot right now and could compile it in 1 minute.

You get the idea.

[Repatition]

The biggest issue is this.
Porting is a pain, and getting Trem to XReal is a hard thing to do for people who have a life and a job.
Take something that would need a total recode such as U3 and the chance of porting plummets to almost nothing.

moving to U3 could be wouldnt be that much more work then xreal because it easier to dev.
waht im saying is you could port the current maps and models to u3 and plug in the game play manually

[gimhael]

Every few months there's a thread just like this, which makes me somewhat hoping for an XreaL port of Trem. Every one of these threads ends disappointingly with nothing.

Until someone(with actual knowledge in how this stuff works) does something to make that a reality, you're wasting your time.

Well there have been not only threads but also projects to port Trem over to Xreal, i know of the Tremfusion attempt to include a Xreal-based renderer and the Xtr3m project.

I think the big problem with this kind of project is that they lack a clearly defined goal. Usually they start with 'we want some nicer graphics', but then the want-to-have list is expanded (correct physics, vehicles, scriptable maps, game modes, new weapons/classes, whatever) until the project is so big that it is completely impossible to do with the available people.

Apart from the development aspect I think a new engine at this time will split the already small community of Tremulous players again. Some think that after 1.2 is released all the 1.1 players/server will migrate to 1.2, but I'm not so sure. If you now add a new engine with new models/maps etc, this means that you will also have servers for the new maps and servers for the old maps and players need the right client for the right server.