Attention: How far do Racist Comments go?

[Uzi]

Hi

Lately, the use of "Nigger" has become a daily tone in US TREM Server, im just wondering to what extent do admins use mute and how far?
I have muted people in the part for the use of that word, and have been told when i was in admin in Dretch Storm Server not to tolerate it, yet people seem to just think they special and go above the law in servers these days.

i know to some people it means nothing, to others its a racist tone and offensive, i take offense of it, although i have been tolerating it lately. When i muted people in the past for say  a 2min mute to tell them to behave, admins would tell me its okay for them to use such tone, although i wonder is it?

I would like a higher view from admins, perhaps from a L5 or L6?
I just don't see why if people use sucha tone in general chat, using offensive words can basically get away with murder. People complain in the server, and want the guy muted; yet L4 admins tell me its not a mute able offensive? Could you please advise me on US TREM SERVER rules about mute?

Thank you

[your face]

that sounds racist.
however, something like, "obama sucks," as racist as it may sound, actually isn't.

[jm82792]

Obama sucks isn't racist. He has caused a lot of change/hell, whatever you prefer,
Anyways I think more kicking and temp banning would help,
it needs to be cleaned up just like the forum is trying to be.

[SlackerLinux]

sure its muteable if you think its offending people feel free to mute

there was some of that for 1 map yesterday noone was really bothered though so no action was taken if its becoming common maybe we need to be stricter with that kinda stuff

[Celestial_Rage]

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12896.msg189707#msg189707

Keep it neutral though please. Racial/religious/gender-based epithets (including "fag" and "bitch") could get you muted without warning.

"Nigger" falls under a racial epithet. It is clearly a mutable offense. Naturally though, it depends on the circumstances.

[Tremulant]

When i muted people in the past for say  a 2min mute to tell them to behave, admins would tell me its okay for them to use such tone, although i wonder is it?

I've muted for "nigger" and "faggot", among other charming little words, in the past, i don't recall anyone of note telling me that it was unreasonable at the time, although it's possible that i just muted them too.

L4 admins tell me its not a mute able offensive? Could you please advise me on US TREM SERVER rules about mute?

Which L4 admins? It would be good to know who's warning you off muting for this kind of thing if you feel the need.

As for poor old obama, he just can't win, the American people have obviously forgotten who he replaced already, come on, just keeping warlike conservatives out of power, if he were to do nothing else, is positive.

[OhaiReapd]

I've muted for "nigger" and "faggot", among other charming little words, in the past, i don't recall anyone of note telling me that it was unreasonable at the time, although it's possible that i just muted them too.

Legit.

[c4]

As long as you're black, it shouldn't be an offense, but there aren't very many African Americans/Canadians/Euros in trem, so probably a mute.

[Undeference]

As long as you're black, it shouldn't be an offense, but there aren't very many African Americans/Canadians/Euros in trem, so probably a mute.

^{[citation needed]}

UnmanedPrayer: damn nigger
Badmin: ru a nigger? i need 2 no so i cen dside 2 mute u r not

Isn't it racism to say that a particular word is racist if it is not used by members of a particular group?

Nigger is predominantly an ethnic slur in North America and is definitely mutable on US1.

[Lakitu7]

As I see it admins are free to mute for it without warning (as it says in the rules). If you don't want to be muted for it, don't say it. Admins are not required to mute for it and nobody's forcing them to do so if they're not offended; however, admins shouldn't be spouting such things all the time themselves either.

[Mario]

I'll come back now that I have a new HDD..i have no problem bringing down the hammer on racism.

[NotYarou]

I'm not racist but... niggers niggers niggers niggers niggers.

[F50]

I've grown lax on this, mostly because if I applied this properly, iabz and friends would get pissed off (see: PC, console, and trem gaming thread). Meh, /mute iabz.

[Anonymoose]

ITS BAD and should not be tolerated at all Uzi.
this sort of injustice cannot go on.
Do what you do best , these unscrupulous individuals must be reprimanded.

[CorSair]

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12896.msg189707#msg189707

Keep it neutral though please. Racial/religious/gender-based epithets (including "fag" and "bitch") could get you muted without warning.

"Nigger" falls under a racial epithet. It is clearly a mutable offense. Naturally though, it depends on the circumstances.

This.

[Urcscumug]

IMHO any individual who wants to be able to interact with others in a public setting should know what is and is not "polite". I think (hope) we all do.

My 2 cents: on the Newbie Server the bar is set at "being polite". People who cross the line receive a "be polite, please" cp, a warning, and a mute, in this order. Those who go for stronger stuff (including repeated insults, spamming, offensive nicks, 2yr old tantrums, racial or nazi-related stuff -- the server being in Germany) can be kicked (and the default kick is 30 min, not 2) or banned outright for long periods of time.

I do not see why "lolololol faggot nigger !!111" should be conducive to having a good time or even tolerated, on the contrary. A civil environment is better. You can berate your team for losing without having to resort to low-grade insults, it's the adult thing to do. And if you're frustrated I bet you can find a way to let it out privately, you don't have to type it for the entire server.

I'm not saying it should be completely stiff-neck "omg you said 'damn' -- permaban!" But when somebody is being an ass on purpose they should get slapped.

[Tremulant]

when somebody is being an ass on purpose they should get slapped.

You can't just go around slapping asses willy-nilly, that's sexual harassment.

[Conzul]

I do not see why "lolololol faggot nigger !!111" should be conducive to having a good time or even tolerated, on the contrary. A civil environment is better. You can berate your team for losing without having to resort to low-grade insults, it's the adult thing to do. And if you're frustrated I bet you can find a way to let it out privately, you don't have to type it for the entire server.

While I firmly believe that when a person runs a server, they have every right to police it as they see fit, I DO think this logic is a bit skewed.

    *A civil environment is better - is it? Low grade insults may be counterproductive in team sports like soccer or other stadium sports that benefit from civility and respect, but Tremulous is not such a game. Tremulous is
      - Violent
      - Contains blood (technically)
      - Has a high probability of teamkilling
   all of which contribute to completely normal frustration. Try enforcing civility in Halo or MW2, or KZ2. Your server will be empty in no time flat. Civility is good, but not everywhere.

    * you don't have to type it for the entire server - barring the existence of rules prohibiting it, why not?

     I do not condone repeated and meaningless insults/racism/cursing, for that is the realm of morons, about which there is no debate. But if you put out a few choice words to alert other players to a situation (MOTHERFUCKER done TK'ed ME THREE TIMES IN A ROW!) or a well placed bind to bust some guts (that nigga daid) I hardly think that makes you a moron, or is out of place in a game such as Tremulous.

Still, whoever runs the server is (GOD)

[Tremulant]

(that nigga daid)

Yep, that makes you a moron.

[Conzul]

(that nigga daid)

Yep, that makes you a moron.

Qualify.

[Tremulant]

It's very simple, saying moronic things, and i believe "that nigga daid" qualifies,  makes you a moron. Are you so breathtakingly simple minded that you can't come up with a suitable alternative or understand why it might be an idea to do so?

[Conzul]

Are you so breathtakingly simple minded that you can't come up with a suitable alternative or understand why it might be an idea to do so?

The more politically incorrect something is, the more potentially funny it is. Why do you think Family Guy gets such high ratings?

It's very simple, saying moronic things, and i believe "that nigga daid" qualifies,  makes you a moron.

Most dictionaries will define a moron as a person who is "notably stupid or lacking in good judgment". Now I'll agree that using a racist epithet in an environment where it's forbidden (i.e. an official server) is lacking in good judgment: Using it elsewhere is not. So if I said something like that on an official server, I would, yes, be a moron.

    If you were intelligent, or of proper judgment, you'd have seen I was making a generalization which allowed for existing rules.

I firmly believe that when a person runs a server, they have every right to police it as they see fit.

[Aelita]

You can't squat and thrust at the same time.

[Tremulant]

Are you so breathtakingly simple minded that you can't come up with a suitable alternative or understand why it might be an idea to do so?

The more politically incorrect something is, the more potentially funny it is. Why do you think Family Guy gets such high ratings?

It's presumably down to the constant use of "nigga" by every character of the cast, i'll look out for that next time it's on, they obviously deliver it with some subtlety.

It's very simple, saying moronic things, and i believe "that nigga daid" qualifies,  makes you a moron.

Most dictionaries will define a moron as a person who is "notably stupid or lacking in good judgment". Now I'll agree that using a racist epithet in an environment where it's forbidden (i.e. an official server) is lacking in good judgment: Using it elsewhere is not. So if I said something like that on an official server, I would, yes, be a moron.

    If you were intelligent, or of proper judgment, you'd have seen I was making a generalization which allowed for existing rules.

I'm sorry? You just said that this was a perfectly ok phrase to use in a game like trem in order to, and i quote, "bust some guts". Bearing in mind that this discussion is primarily about behaviour and language on the official servers i think it's reasonable to jump to the conclusion that you believe the occasional use of such language is both entertaining and perfectly acceptable.
As for why you're a moron, yes, that's right, you used "that nigga daid", as an example of the kind of bind you'd be liable to use. I also love the fact that you feel it's worth arguing about, you are, in my estimation, a moron, you're not about to change that by arguing the toss.

[ziplocpeople]

Hi

Lately, the use of "Nigger" has become a daily tone in US TREM Server, im just wondering to what extent do admins use mute and how far?
I have muted people in the part for the use of that word, and have been told when i was in admin in Dretch Storm Server not to tolerate it, yet people seem to just think they special and go above the law in servers these days.

i know to some people it means nothing, to others its a racist tone and offensive, i take offense of it, although i have been tolerating it lately. When i muted people in the past for say  a 2min mute to tell them to behave, admins would tell me its okay for them to use such tone, although i wonder is it?

I would like a higher view from admins, perhaps from a L5 or L6?
I just don't see why if people use sucha tone in general chat, using offensive words can basically get away with murder. People complain in the server, and want the guy muted; yet L4 admins tell me its not a mute able offensive? Could you please advise me on US TREM SERVER rules about mute?

Thank you

See the server rules for more details, I'm pretty sure it's covered there.
EDIT, also this:

I've muted for "nigger" and "faggot", among other charming little words, in the past, i don't recall anyone of note telling me that it was unreasonable at the time, although it's possible that i just muted them too.

[jm82792]

Muting them is fine when they do that, that and spam binding.
A warning is nice unless they are spatting off like crazy.

[CreatureofHell]

They go deep.

[K-otic]

Too far. Let me tell you a story.

I was listening to Metro FM last night and heard about this excellent organisation that you are running and it happen that I'm the victim of racism that was still fresh when you were launching your organisation and I tried to call but couldnt go through.

My ordeal happened on Friday the 05 Feb 2010 in a pub next to my house and it was on The Times newspaper page 6.I truly think and believe that we can conquer this if we all work together because racistpeople will never stop if we dont do something.If I can just elaborate on what happened to me.

My fiance called and said he was at the Pub that is 2 minutes away from my house and for my life I have never been to that Pub and I've been staying in the area for a couple months, this Pub is in the small shopping complex where there is a Spar, Bottle store,hairsalon, restuarants and clothing shops and its a public place where we send children to buy things from Spar.So I went into Matys Pu and Grill in Weltevreden Park Corner Jim Fouche and Without Street to meet my Fiance and his friends on my arrival there was a bunch of white people seated outside the Pub I presume was the smoking area but they had dogs one a PitBull and Sausage dog I went into the Pub told my fiance this and he wasnt fazed because he knows me as a complainer so they were having drinks and I was real not comfortable about the whole place I decided to leave and wait for him in the car because these dogs were just roaming around every where, his friend decided to walk out with me. When I was leaving the owner of the pitbull said something to the dog in a language that was no familiar to me and the dog attacked me biting my left foot, while I was screaming and bleeding I told him what had happened( Not that he didnt see) but he just said since when we drink with Black Bitchies in our Pub and his crew laughed and I took my cell phone calling the police he took his gun and put it on the table in intimitadation way so my fiance's friend went back in to call my fiance and they were all calling the cops and he grab some other white of which I think it was to bluff ,to say aggresevily he must take him and his dog home and the other guy obliged.Hardly 15 minutes the cops were there and I told them what happened while I was bleeding and crying andpointed out the guys who drove the pepetrator away, the cops took him and we went to his house and the cops got his photograph of which I have in my possesion and he had run away clearly the crew at the Pub had contacted him and informed him that cops were coming so we didnt find him.Case was opened with Honeydew Police Station and went to Wighewel Hospital first but they were expensive so I went to Helen Joseph for rabbie's injections and cleaning of the wound.I lost my left shoe in the incident


Weeks later, I went to fetch my car from the shopping complex because I couldnt drive it on the day of the incident.I asked the bar man if there owner was there and he said yes she was so I approached and her comments were I heard and its unfortunate but what were you doing in my Pub?I have learnt that the owner of the dog and the owner of the Pub are siblings.On the 07 Feb 2010 was my 35 Birthday and I didnt even enjoy it and my children were playing soccer at UJ University I couldnt take them because I couldnt drive even on the 08 Fe 2010 I had to ask my friend to drive me to and from the office because I cant drive.Im in pains and I real need your help and as Mr Lesufi said racist shops or companies needs to be closed down till they are found guilty by law and I second that.This man is well known in the area for his racism acts but no one had said something because they scared, Im scared too by I cant let this happen to somelse or to children.I want to become a member and fight this.I cant even go and see my clients because that's what I do for leaving because I cant drive.

Lets fight racism with all we have.He is not arrested as yet I dont know have the reason for that because they have his adress.

I think admins should ban on first use of racial slur, one strike rule applies!

Please, think of the children that play this game so happily! Duck should not be exposed to this language.

[CreatureofHell]

It's at times like this that I wish education actually taught people how to use the keys on their keyboard correctly...

[Aelita]

copypasta?

Seriously wtf'd at this one

[Conzul]

I think admins should ban on first use of racial slur, one strike rule applies!

Sure. As long as the use of cracker also gets an instaban.

Please, think of the children that play this game so happily! Duck should not be exposed to this language.

Did you know that the Tyrant used to be called the "Big Mofo"? Oh, and learn to type in proper sentences before imposing your singular views onto the forum populace.

[CreatureofHell]

I think admins should ban on first use of racial slur, one strike rule applies!

Sure. As long as the use of cracker also gets an instaban.

You can't ban names of TV shows. Cracker is quite good.

[mooseberry]

Sure. As long as the use of cracker also gets an instaban.

You may be joking, but I figure I may as well address this since I don't think this has come up yet. There is a 'scale' of pejorative terms which on the whole are bad, obviously, but there is a difference in treatment for them. Let me first say I obviously don't support instaban for any term, mute works fine, unless the repeatedly get themselves muted game after game. One or two uses of nigger should be warned, after that muted. Cracker, and things like that should be warned, probably muted if they are using the word to harass somebody, but I do not see it on the same scale as nigger, not even close, because of the history attached to the word nigger, and what was done by the people who first used it.

[Aelita]

You mean how the word wasn't even an entirely negative connotation at first? Nigger simply meant somebody of black skin colour. Sure, it's evolved into a racial epithet but that's not what it was originally.

[A Spork]

And a cracker is a food item.

[Conzul]

Cracker is also a "racial epithet" used to describe a white person, or someone who is "behaving white". Regardless of its severity, something is either a racial slur, or it isn't. Cracker is.

[mooseberry]

Cracker is also a "racial epithet" used to describe a white person, or someone who is "behaving white". Regardless of its severity, something is either a racial slur, or it isn't. Cracker is.

Sure, it can be used as a racial slur. But it also doesn't have the history behind it, was never used as a term to subjugate a group of people into slavery or diminished rights. Based on this fact, I don't feel cracker is as harsh a word as nigger. There are different levels of all kinds of "swear words", some of which are worse than the other. If you feel just as insulted by cracker (I am assuming based on your arguments you are "white") as you imagine Black people are by nigger, than fine, mute or ask an admin to mute when someone is using it. I'm only stating what I will do based on my knowledge of real life situations. You are still free to do whatever you wish.

[F50]

Eh, cracker *can* be a racial epithet, but only when used as a subject or predicate nominative referring to another player. But it can also not be a racial epithet when used in other contexts. That said, I had never heard that one before.

[Tremulant]

I can quite imagine legitimate uses for the word "cracker" on the official servers(admittedly odd uses but it is a peculiar place and threats to carve up the nearest granger for consumption with cheese and savoury biscuits are not entirely unlikely), "nigger", not so much.

[A Spork]

it is a peculiar place and threats to carve up the nearest granger for consumption with cheese and savoury biscuits are not entirely unlikely

lolwin

[ziplocpeople]

it is a peculiar place and threats to carve up the nearest granger for consumption with cheese and savoury biscuits are not entirely unlikely

lolwin

[Aelita]

Code:

\*nigger = \*granger;

i have directly modified the symbol table. fear my aliasing powers

[Undeference]

Code:

\*nigger = \*granger;

try

Code:

nigger    granger

http://betaserv.game-host.org/censorship.txt

[Norfenstein]

I would like a higher view from admins, perhaps from a L5 or L6?
I just don't see why if people use sucha tone in general chat, using offensive words can basically get away with murder. People complain in the server, and want the guy muted; yet L4 admins tell me its not a mute able offensive? Could you please advise me on US TREM SERVER rules about mute?

I'm disappointed you were told that. Obvious bigotry deserves instant muting, and if someone keeps doing it multiple times anyway you can start kicking them (iabz knows I'll do this, and I think he has gotten better). You can use your own judgement though; sometimes people are just trolling and it can be better to ignore them.

Let me be clear what the point of this rule is: it's not to have a list of "approved speech" or to keep everyone from getting their feelings hurt, it is to maintain environment in which no one feels unwelcome. I let "fag" and "bitch" slide a lot, but if they were to become common, approved-of speech (like on, say, 4chan) then any gay or female person is naturally going to feel like an outsider, and I don't want that. Harsh language is allowed, but please keep it demographically neutral.

Sure, it can be used as a racial slur. But it also doesn't have the history behind it, was never used as a term to subjugate a group of people into slavery or diminished rights.

Well said. "Nigger" brings down the full weight of centuries worth of oppression. "Cracker" is a snack food. I have no concern that the privileged majority is going to be made to feel unwelcome on a public America-based server.

[Silence]

So where does the line stop? Is Negro proper or derogatory? Chink? Beaner? I'm just saying. If we're gunna start pulling these sort of things, then where is the line and how far can we push it? There should be a decent standard and not let it be up to whomever is on at the current point. This is just my view on it. Take it or leave it.

[mooseberry]

So where does the line stop? Is Negro proper or derogatory? Chink? Beaner? I'm just saying. If we're gunna start pulling these sort of things, then where is the line and how far can we push it? There should be a decent standard and not let it be up to whomever is on at the current point. This is just my view on it. Take it or leave it.

Maybe you could try to avoid saying any type of demographically insulting slurs? Just a thought. Encourage others to do the same. I think I also answered your question anyways. The purpose of this is "to maintain environment in which no one feels unwelcome" to quote Norfenstein. Idiot or noob is fine, saying fuck! or what have you is fine, but words that specifically target and insult people of specific groups is not wanted.

[Silence]

So where does the line stop? Is Negro proper or derogatory? Chink? Beaner? I'm just saying. If we're gunna start pulling these sort of things, then where is the line and how far can we push it? There should be a decent standard and not let it be up to whomever is on at the current point. This is just my view on it. Take it or leave it.

Maybe you could try to avoid saying any type of demographically insulting slurs? Just a thought. Encourage others to do the same. I think I also answered your question anyways. The purpose of this is "to maintain environment in which no one feels unwelcome" to quote Norfenstein. Idiot or noob is fine, saying fuck! or what have you is fine, but words that specifically target and insult people of specific groups is not wanted.

Yeah, personally I try to stick away from things as such, but what about others? I know for one I like to try to flex the rules as much as possible without breaking them. Im just saying if you're gunna put down a rule about it, make sure it defines what is and isn't because otherwise we're gunna have a lot of arguing. And if we're trying to make everyone feel welcome then wouldn't calling one an "idiot" or "noob" be unwelcoming?

[Tremulant]

Let's just use a little common sense, and not get too upset when using unpleasant language lands you with a brief mute, how does that sound? There really is no point over-analysing this, obviously-bad-words=bad, simple enough i'm sure you'll agree...

Hmm, then again, trem's playerbase does consist of a fair few idiots, so allowing the use of "idiot" as a casual insult might well upset them, they can't help being idiots, afterall.

[Lakitu7]

Tired of deleting posts in this thread. Everything worth saying about this has already been said:

Use common sense.
Admins have the right to mute without warning for such words, but do not have to.

We're not discussing what races are more oppressed than others on a forum about a goddamn video game.