Gameplay Preview Phase 3 Results

[Conzul]

Dretches are weaker than rifles, and why shouldn't they be? They're not worth as much.

They are the only offensive class when you start the game.

For Hummies so is rifle? Duh?

[Asvarox]

Dretches are weaker than rifles, and why shouldn't they be? They're not worth as much.

I don't see how can you compare evos and credits which are IMO hardly comparable. And even if Dretches are not "worth as much" that certainly doesn't compensate the "strongness" difference between it and rifle.

[mooseberry]

A typical example is game I played yesterday on utcs where aliens survived a steady stream of saw-grenade attacks throughout the entire game, and only lost when humans attacked as a team when we were at a funds disadvantage (they had a bunch of chainsuits etc., we had just blown our tyrants and goons trying to attack them). Which is basically exactly how the game is supposed to play out.

No, we all know the aliens really lost because of you having three times as many team kills as the next highest teamkiller on your team. 

[Heck]

I like it.

[madmadmad]

First of all, may I request for an asian official server? We have a group of over 30 players who have played trem for more than2 years. We may not be pro but at least we can play:P. We have also started a new promotion since November. I think we can help on balancing the game.

Some feedbacks on 1.2:1.1 bases r not working at all. You can't build an anti-rant/adv. goon and mara-proofed base now.
Every game that aliens win is basically by mara party rush(
The only way that human may fight back is by repeators push.
We all think mara zap is a bit ridiculously strong against sad turrets. A mara can jump in without getting hurt much by the base.
I love how the goon is now and I think thats how it should be. Although at first my fds complain about the sad chomp range, they r now get used to it and the pounce-chomp combo is still effective. The 1.1 one is a bit too dominating imho.
Some ppl think that mara should be nerfed but we think it is doing great right now. As a mara user myself, I beg u plz dont increase the hitbox size. The 1.1 one is too easy to be hit by players that can aim( may be u will say I cant play. Wtever)

[mooseberry]

First of all, may I request for an asian official server? We have a group of over 30 players who have played trem for more than2 years. We may not be pro but at least we can play:P. We have also started a new promotion since November. I think we can help on balancing the game.

To have an server located in Asia you would need somebody to host it in Asia.


(I'm a genius.)

[Cadynum]

Dretches are weaker than rifles, and why shouldn't they be? They're not worth as much.

Because they're the only offensive class aliens have in the start.
Also the new basilisk is not really an offensive class so you need 2 whole evos before you can start attacking for real as aliens.
At that point humans already have a huge advantage given all the dretches you had to sacrifice to get the 2 evos.

[Cadynum]

I agree that it's a lot easier to kill few dretches with a rifle than to kill few rifles with a dretch. But I don't think dretch is that underpowered (honestly I think it's fine). I believe that rifle is overpowered (as I said few times already). I don't know numbers, so statistically I might be wrong, but I believe that it has higher dps ( - reload time) than lasgun - when there's a mara rc jumping I get rifle, because it's likely that it lost some hp already (in case it's advanced "bug") and I will shoot it down faster. It's fire-rate saved me many times where there was a dretch storm trying to swarm me and it was likely that if I held lasgun I would he died. Sure lasgun is useful in many situations where rifle would kinda suck (ie. shooting aliens from longer distances, tking) but that doesn't compensate the cost difference. I end up using rifle until we have s1 so I don't lose so many credits in case I die.

IMO lasgun is vastly superior to the rifle.
Just for fun, even if i took note to your "i don't know the numbers", here are some statistics for 1 particular case:

Damage per `bullet`:
L: 9
R: 5

Time between bullets:
L: 0.2s
R: 0.09s

What does this mean?
To kill a dretch you need 3 lasgun shots or 5 rifle shots. Since you fire the first shot instantly it would boil down to this:
L: 0.2s * (3-1) = 0.40s
R: 0.09s * (5-1) = 0.36s

The difference is 0.04s for 1 dretch. A small price to pay for no spread and no reload.
This is, btw, also the reason the massdriver is the best weapon in the game for everything except tyrant (assuming perfect aim) while also strictly speaking having the lowest DPS.

[scrape]

I almost never see games ending the way you describe, and when I do it's because there aren't enough players on a team to properly defend (meaning: not enough players to notice their base is under attack until it's too late). Not only does it always (otherwise) take multiple waves of attacks to bring down bases, but competent defense can stop them. A typical example is game I played yesterday on utcs where aliens survived a steady stream of saw-grenade attacks throughout the entire game, and only lost when humans attacked as a team when we were at a funds disadvantage (they had a bunch of chainsuits etc., we had just blown our tyrants and goons trying to attack them). Which is basically exactly how the game is supposed to play out.

Well not instant in this case but you want trem gameplay for aliens to be:
"aliens survived a steady stream of saw-grenade attacks throughout the entire game"

So... humans are suppose to suicide run pain saw the OM, shit a grenade, die, repeat (I did nonstop
all my last humans play, don't recall losing), while aliens try to rebuild eggs and overmind, over and over, for 30
mintues? ( at SD, aliens seem to almost always win, due to the armory )
I would rather play a game where it was a battle between teams and not a defense of the suicide bomber.

*The goal should be to take the other base down, but it shouldn't be as simple and mindless as it currently is, governed
purely by AoE storms, nothing else.

*I prefer peeking around a corner and sniping, then trying to get away, slightly sneaking, using distraction, instead
its now hop into the base as adv mara, spam zap, die, repeat. Or the afore mentioned painsaw-grenades suicide bombers.

A player, that built in the game you referenced, insisted he would not leave the human base, until s3, because
"adv mara is op and our base will die if we leave" It has the same effect for aliens, soo much camping, and the
only major offense, are these attacks.

My only request is, make it so there are other equal options for assault, so you can choose from others, to suit
the best way to take down an opposing teams base. Things like pulse rifles, *aimed* at the overmind, while the
player is *alive* to take the Overmind down, to me, creates more competitive gameplay then "throw grenade,
painsaw om,use medkit, keep sawing till dead (takes 6-8 seconds)".

So my recommendations:

• Grenades only explode if the player who expended it, is alive.
• Remove adv dragon snipe splash.
• Either Adjust adv mara zap OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**
• AND\OR Lower the stage requirement for Hives\Telsas

It means in grenade chucking rushes, its important to stay alive and not just damage till dead.
It means with adv goon, you have to aim again.
It means someone will have to assist the mara storm, or take the telsas down first, before the attack.

The result is something close to a base, you don't have to heavily camp, aliens are rewarded for killing the
rusher fast (stops the grenade), adv goons don't have to *just get close*, and the base can delay a mara assault.


** I've sit on the side of the armory, in close range of a telsa, never receiving its zap once, after, it was
just a few lone mara swipes to kill it myself. Only use is against dretches, since they can't harm any functional
structure.

[Norfenstein]

Some feedbacks on 1.2:1.1 bases r not working at all. You can't build an anti-rant/adv. goon and mara-proofed base now.

There shouldn't be any kind of *-proof bases, just bases that stay up well enough on their own that you can mount attacks on the enemy's base.

We all think mara zap is a bit ridiculously strong against sad turrets. A mara can jump in without getting hurt much by the base.
...
Some ppl think that mara should be nerfed but we think it is doing great right now. As a mara user myself, I beg u plz dont increase the hitbox size. The 1.1 one is too easy to be hit by players that can aim( may be u will say I cant play. Wtever)

Increasing the hit box would make them take more damage from turrets. I think their speed increase has affected the balance somewhat, so I probably will increase their hitbox sizes slightly. But it won't be back to their 1.1 sizes.

Because they're the only offensive class aliens have in the start.
Also the new basilisk is not really an offensive class so you need 2 whole evos before you can start attacking for real as aliens.
At that point humans already have a huge advantage given all the dretches you had to sacrifice to get the 2 evos.

Not a compelling argument given how dominating aliens are in games ending at stage 1. And most games end between 4.6 and 22.8 minutes (if I'm reading the graph right); getting 2 whole frags isn't much of a stretch in that period, especially since you don't need as many kills to earn an equivalent amount to what the humans are getting from killing you. So I wouldn't say humans get a "huge advantage", and a small advantage is fine if it evens out by stage 3.

Well not instant in this case but you want trem gameplay for aliens to be:
"aliens survived a steady stream of saw-grenade attacks throughout the entire game"

*The goal should be to take the other base down, but it shouldn't be as simple and mindless as it currently is, governed
purely by AoE storms, nothing else.

I was referring to the end game, when the human team united and attacked aliens when the time was right. That wasn't mindless at all. Aliens survived the saw-grenades rushes specifically because they were mindless (not coordinated with teammates, not done at opportune times). So I still don't agree with your premise that area effect weapons are mindless, or game-breaking.

A player, that built in the game you referenced, insisted he would not leave the human base, until s3, because
"adv mara is op and our base will die if we leave" It has the same effect for aliens, soo much camping, and the
only major offense, are these attacks.

Part of the purpose of area effect weapons is to make camping not work. You don't reduce camping by coddling defenders, you reduce it with negative reinforcement: by making offense a necessary part of surviving. If his team had listened to him and stopped attacking, they would (or at least should) have lost.

OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**

I was probably going to do this anyway simply because they're just not useful enough compared to turrets.

[Winnie the Pooh]

Well not instant in this case but you want trem gameplay for aliens to be:
"aliens survived a steady stream of saw-grenade attacks throughout the entire game"

So... humans are suppose to suicide run pain saw the OM, shit a grenade, die, repeat (I did nonstop
all my last humans play, don't recall losing),

The whole point of an alien base is to slow down and damage players trying to damage vital structures. If you can survive a run to the over-mind with near-full hp, your base should probably be re-built so that it specifically covers pathways to the over-mind and eggs.

while aliens try to rebuild eggs and overmind, over and over, for 30
mintues? ( at SD, aliens seem to almost always win, due to the armory )
I would rather play a game where it was a battle between teams and not a defense of the suicide bomber.

*The goal should be to take the other base down, but it shouldn't be as simple and mindless as it currently is, governed
purely by AoE storms, nothing else.

You'll have to clarify; do you mean grenades as a human? Or maybe lightning zaps as a marauder? Or perhaps the lucifer cannon?

Well, grenades are meant for just that purpose, they only deal AoE damage, that's how they work.. I don't see your point with grenades. They have always been an integral part of tremulous, I don't see what you think is wrong with it.

Marauder zaps are just another way of attacking; if your base is getting destroyed, your base is most likely built too close together. Also, it's best to spread apart when a squad of humans encounter one. Just so you know.

The lucifer cannon is the most expensive weapon of the human team, and rightly so. It's powerful. It's supposed to be. You paid for it, it's what you get.

*I prefer peeking around a corner and sniping, then trying to get away, slightly sneaking, using distraction, instead
its now hop into the base as adv mara, spam zap, die, repeat. Or the afore mentioned painsaw-grenades suicide bombers.

I'm sorry, when did the sniping become no longer an option for players? You prefer it? DO IT. There's nothing stopping you, and since splash damage was added to barbs, they've become even more deadly.

And pertaining to advanced marauders, see my above text. There are other ways to destroy a base you know. Yeah. Seriously. Mind-blowing right?

For example:

• As a tyrant, charging into a turret, swiping it once or twice, then charging away.
  
• As a dragoon, pouncing in, chomping a ret once or twice, then pouncing out.
  

Never thought of it before?

A player, that built in the game you referenced, insisted he would not leave the human base, until s3, because
"adv mara is op and our base will die if we leave" It has the same effect for aliens, soo much camping, and the
only major offense, are these attacks.

Soo much camping huh? Really? Who's doing the camping then? I mean, if you noticed that the aliens are camping you must be:

A. In the base with them, just hanging out. Aka, camping along with them.

B. Attacking as a human, noticing all these aliens inside the base as you get slaughtered trying to get to a structure. This one is unlikely, as you're defending the aliens (in your post) which human players normally don't do. Or I could just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you're an insightful person who looks at both sides of the argument before posting. For the sake of the argument, we'll just go with that.

My only request is, make it so there are other equal options for assault, so you can choose from others, to suit
the best way to take down an opposing teams base. Things like pulse rifles, *aimed* at the overmind, while the
player is *alive* to take the Overmind down, to me, creates more competitive gameplay

Woah, since when are pulse rifles not able to do that?! Why wasn't I alerted?! I must've missed the memo! =(

then "throw grenade,
painsaw om,use medkit, keep sawing till dead (takes 6-8 seconds)".

Like I said before, if you can do this effectively, your base most likely deserves it. Don't count on a default base to defend properly, always tweak your base to cover whatever needs it.

So my recommendations:

• Grenades only explode if the player who expended it, is alive.
• Remove adv dragon snipe splash.
• Either Adjust adv mara zap OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**
• AND\OR Lower the stage requirement for Hives\Telsas

It means in grenade chucking rushes, its important to stay alive and not just damage till dead.

Good point, but remember that if you let the attacker get to your base with a substantial amount of hp, it's YOUR fault for letting him damage your base like that.

It means with adv goon, you have to aim again.

Last time I checked, you still have to aim; don't exaggerate like that.

It means someone will have to assist the mara storm, or take the telsas down first, before the attack.

You act like marauders can dodge everything in the human's arsenal - they can't. They die. They die a lot faster with someone shooting at them, by the way. Tesla's work, you should watch them sometime.

The result is something close to a base, you don't have to heavily camp, aliens are rewarded for killing the
rusher fast (stops the grenade), adv goons don't have to *just get close*, and the base can delay a mara assault.

You don't have to heavily camp, ever.

Some bases are amazingly protected, and it would be unfair to disable a grenade. That's like canceling a Lucifer cannon shot if you die. Would you like that? No. Same with grenades.

Stop with the generalizations on the dragoon. Explain what you dislike.

I explained marauders.

** I've sit on the side of the armory, in close range of a telsa, never receiving its zap once, after, it was
just a few lone mara swipes to kill it myself. Only use is against dretches, since they can't harm any functional
structure.

[Conzul]

So my recommendations:

    * Grenades only explode if the player who expended it, is alive.
    * Remove adv dragon snipe splash.
    * Either Adjust adv mara zap OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**
    * AND\OR Lower the stage requirement for Hives\Telsas

I like these. A more elegant solution however would be to make the grenade solid, so that aliens with swipe-abilities could kick it back.

Edit: BTW I LOVE the goon now, and the flamer's about right. I would like to put out that I think the delay (as an adv.basilisk) between when you can gass and then swipe is waaaaay too long. It like if you jump into a fight, you have the choice: will you do damage or disorient? Is there a chance that this delay could be reduced?

[SlackerLinux]

So my recommendations:

    * Grenades only explode if the player who expended it, is alive.
    * Remove adv dragon snipe splash.
    * Either Adjust adv mara zap OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**
    * AND\OR Lower the stage requirement for Hives\Telsas

i dont like these they promote more invincible human bases. the way they currently are forces you to attack the enemy so they have to defend/rebuild and they cant attack your base if they have to defend against wave after wave of humans/aliens a much better way then 1.1's camp till s3 then kill everything while anyone trying to attack enemy base dies instantly etc

[scrape]

You'll have to clarify; do you mean grenades as a human? Or maybe lightning zaps as a marauder? Or perhaps the lucifer cannon?

Well, grenades are meant for just that purpose, they only deal AoE damage, that's how they work.. I don't see your point with grenades. They have always been an integral part of tremulous, I don't see what you think is wrong with it.

Marauder zaps are just another way of attacking; if your base is getting destroyed, your base is most likely built too close together. Also, it's best to spread apart when a squad of humans encounter one. Just so you know.

I'm sorry, when did the sniping become no longer an option for players? You prefer it? DO IT. There's nothing stopping you, and since splash damage was added to barbs, they've become even more deadly.

And pertaining to advanced marauders, see my above text. There are other ways to destroy a base you know. Yeah. Seriously. Mind-blowing right?

Point with grenades, you don't have to be alive for them to work. Why should they be a post
mortem weapon? It was like that in 1.1, I thought we are attempting to FIX, problems with 1.1, not
keep because its "always been that way".

In regards to snipes, I said it shouldn't have splash, and should be the primary.
Why slowly snipe when you can *own* with mara, snipe only use now is picking off one struct during a camp session
or taking down sky bases and such.
Seriously. Mind-blowing right?

For example:

• As a tyrant, charging into a turret, swiping it once or twice, then charging away.
  
• As a dragoon, pouncing in, chomping a ret once or twice, then pouncing out.
  

Never thought of it before?

Yeah lets waste 6 evos on one ret, wonderful, when you can take out several with 3 evos.
Never thought of that before?

Soo much camping huh? Really? Who's doing the camping then? I mean, if you noticed that the aliens are camping you must be:

A. In the base with them, just hanging out. Aka, camping along with them.

I'm certain after playing with you for year(s), you realize that, you die, appear in your own base, to
find no one left, hence see the camping, then leave your base. You also realize you are the only one rushing,
since you die alone. Wrong assertion.

B. Attacking as a human, noticing all these aliens inside the base as you get slaughtered trying to get to a structure. This one is unlikely, as you're defending the aliens (in your post) which human players normally don't do.

Yes humans don't normally defend as aliens since they are humans.
I suspect you just mistyped.

Or I could just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you're an insightful person who looks at both sides of the argument before posting. For the sake of the argument, we'll just go with that.

Well thank you sir. Yes I play both sides of the game, hence both sides of the argument, and just want
an intriguing battle between two forces and not gren gren gren winzor.

Woah, since when are pulse rifles not able to do that?! Why wasn't I alerted?! I must've missed the memo! =(

I said I would PREFER that is the dominate way to take down a base, but since its its not as effective
as suicide missions, no one does it. (unless its gren spam, and kill ceiling structs) Are you alerted now?

Good point, but remember that if you let the attacker get to your base with a substantial amount of hp, it's YOUR fault for letting him damage your base like that.

So does this apply to a grenade that once thrown, cannot be stopped? Its the aliens fault, the human was able
to smack one grenade bind, before he died. Now they get to run from it, no way to stop it?

It means with adv goon, you have to aim again.

Last time I checked, you still have to aim; don't exaggerate like that.

With barb splash, you don't have to really aim, just approx area, close enough is fine.
With mara zap, you sit and click, how is this exaggeration?

It means someone will have to assist the mara storm, or take the telsas down first, before the attack.

You act like marauders can dodge everything in the human's arsenal - they can't. They die. They die a lot faster with someone shooting at them, by the way. Tesla's work, you should watch them sometime.

So you suggest the humans camp to defend against maras right? Since they die a lot faster with someone shooting at
them, correct? Telsa's have too short a range, even Norf is contemplating an increase.

You don't have to heavily camp, ever.
Some bases are amazingly protected, and it would be unfair to disable a grenade. That's like canceling a Lucifer cannon shot if you die. Would you like that? No. Same with grenades.

Inform some players of this new "don't have to heavily camp" revelation of yours, we will thank you.
Its not about disabling the grenade, its about port mortem weapons, at least the luci has to be charged, aimed
and fired first, the grenade is just one key smack.

Stop with the generalizations on the dragoon. Explain what you dislike.

Where did I generalize? I said, remove the goon barb splash, how is this a generalization?
Ok I'll explain, remove the barb splash. Its unneeded, it tks, it makes it a spam weapon, instead of an aimed
one.

I explained marauders.

Where?
This?

Marauder zaps are just another way of attacking; if your base is getting destroyed, your base is most likely built too close together. Also, it's best to spread apart when a squad of humans encounter one. Just so you know.

It would be easier to reply, if the whole thing wasn't just condescending , unfortunately most maps do not allow much of a *spread out base*, and repeaters force the structs to be within its area of influence, which is, in
practice, mara zap range.

[scrape]

So my recommendations:

    * Grenades only explode if the player who expended it, is alive.
    * Remove adv dragon snipe splash.
    * Either Adjust adv mara zap OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**
    * AND\OR Lower the stage requirement for Hives\Telsas

i dont like these they promote more invincible human bases. the way they currently are forces you to attack the enemy so they have to defend/rebuild and they cant attack your base if they have to defend against wave after wave of humans/aliens a much better way then 1.1's camp till s3 then kill everything while anyone trying to attack enemy base dies instantly etc

Well, dragoons snipe telsas (clearing the way for maras), then adv maras can attack.
So humans can survive them, with the telsas increase power, without so much camping. So with this, changing the mara is
probably pointless, but I wanted to give other options.

The grenade "not exploding after death" seems like a reasonable change. Recently, I was only able to wound
the overmind with my pain saw, but my post mortem grenade, that fired after I was already naked at the armory, took
the overmind out with 2 aliens. There wasn't a damn thing they could do about it either, hardly fun, and they killed
me quickly.

[Cadynum]

So my recommendations:

    * Grenades only explode if the player who expended it, is alive.
    * Remove adv dragon snipe splash.
    * Either Adjust adv mara zap OR increase the Telsas range.(its low, and it takes little to block it**
    * AND\OR Lower the stage requirement for Hives\Telsas

The grenade "not exploding after death" seems like a reasonable change. Recently, I was only able to wound
the overmind with my pain saw, but my post mortem grenade, that fired after I was already naked at the armory, took
the overmind out with 2 aliens. There wasn't a damn thing they could do about it either, hardly fun, and they killed
me quickly.

Recently I was able to kill the overmind with a pulserifle. The aliens had built a crappy base and didn't defend properly.
I move to suggest a ban against the pulserifle as well since the overmind is supposed to be invincible and anything threatening it's existence should be banned.
For the overmind!

[Demolution]

Recently I was able to kill the overmind with a pulserifle. The aliens had built a crappy base and didn't defend properly.
I move to suggest a ban against the pulserifle as well since the overmind is supposed to be invincible and anything threatening it's existence should be banned.
For the overmind!

I once killed the Overmind with an alien. Guess we have to get rid of those too....

[UniqPhoeniX]

Yeah lets waste 6 evos on one ret, wonderful, when you can take out several with 3 evos.
Never thought of that before?

FYI: rant costs 5 evos, and with that tactic you are *supposed* to survive, or wait for a better chance. Or take out several rets and die. So stop your stupid exaggerations.

(regarding pulse rifles:)
I said I would PREFER that is the dominate way to take down a base, but since its its not as effective
as suicide missions, no one does it. (unless its gren spam, and kill ceiling structs) Are you alerted now?

Really? Noone does it? It is much more effective then suicide rush... (if you have more then 0 teammates that is).

So does this apply to a grenade that once thrown, cannot be stopped? Its the aliens fault, the human was able
to smack one grenade bind, before he died. Now they get to run from it, no way to stop it?

Well they are supposed to run from the grenade, not stare at it. If the human got far enough to drop the gren right next to OM, then the aliens deserve that. If the human manages to do that repeatedly, enough to take out OM, then the aliens deserve that too.
If you manage to get to the overmind, saw most of it's hp, and throw grenade, then the aliens sucked. (Even more if 2 aliens stayed around to admire the shiny human technology).
If you think it will be possible to get to overmind, drop grenade, and survive for 5 seconds after that (more then once a month by luck), then I should inform you that this is a multiplayer game. Not single player. You play it by connecting to a server with preferably 5 or more players.
If the aliens need to be rebuilding eggs because of gren rushes, then they either suck at building or wallwalking, and deserve it.

With barb splash, you don't have to really aim, just approx area, close enough is fine.
With mara zap, you sit and click, how is this exaggeration?

Dragoons still have to aim to use their barbs efficiently. Same with mara.

Inform some players of this new "don't have to heavily camp" revelation of yours, we will thank you.
Its not about disabling the grenade, its about port mortem weapons, at least the luci has to be charged, aimed
and fired first, the grenade is just one key smack.

Noone needs to inform them. If they camp, they lose, they will get it eventually. That's how it is supposed to be.

...remove the barb splash. Its unneeded, it tks, it makes it a spam weapon, instead of an aimed one.

It is great against dense human bases, making them not impenetrable. It tks if the player using it sux. It still needs to be aimed to be more useful.
(Oh btw, why the newlines in the middle of sentences O.o)

[Liskey]

The grenade "not exploding after death" seems like a reasonable change.

Sorry, but saying it 10 times won't make it so.
* If a human makes it within a grenade's throw of the OM, the alien's defense (en-route plus active and passive within base) has failed.  Likewise for maras being able to get off more than one zap before dying.
* wave after wave of nades/maras isn't possible - if the team gets completely full before launching a rush (not likely without scrim discipline), they still get only 2 or 3 waves before being exhausted, unless they own the defenders along the way.
* nade is just noticeable because of the delay between trigger and effect.  Do you also think luciballs, pulses and barbs should also vanish when the defender dies?  Would you be happier if the delay were .4 sec instead of 4?  As a human I would, since I'd have a chance of nading those pesky lisks when no one else is around.
* comparing a game to RL is silly but I'll do it anyway - how many WW-II grenades or land/sea mines operate the way you want?  They are *supposed* to do their thing without human involvement.

To repeat: if grenades get to the OM then the builders and defenders aren't doing their job.  S2 is supposed to be more powerful than S1, and if grenades exist before trappers, or mara+'s before helmets, then the S2 team deserves to win.

[madmadmad]

Plz offer an example of base where a mara cannot zap more than 1 zap liskey
I am really curious

[bob0]

Plz offer an example of base where a mara cannot zap more than 1 zap liskey
I am really curious

This is a good niveus base.  Of course, it's not impossible to destroy it, but it's pretty tough to hurt.

These turrets are well placed.

15 -244.0162048 -22.0350731 63.0625004 0.0 -46.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -46.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
10 -530.0811768 458.0515289 228.0625000 0.0 117.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 -330.0 295.0358948 1.0 2 0 0.0
9 -534.0731384 336.0407196 212.0625000 0.0 -179.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -179.0 1.0 0 0 0.0
9 -361.0417786 175.0383087 212.0625000 0.0 1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 1.0 1.0 0 0 0.0
1 1328.0 224.0 303.0125000 0.0 405.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 405.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
12 -364.0313721 -52.0143719 13.0625000 0.0 -1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -1.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
14 -330.0547119 27.0262064 7.0625000 0.0 -44.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 -44.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
10 -591.0699280 83.035957 20.0625000 0.0 -80.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 -358.0762177 59.0353149 1.0 2 0 0.0
1 928.0 -144.0 207.0125000 0.0 217.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 217.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
1 1272.0 -16.0 303.0125000 0.0 315.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 315.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -591.0362854 412.0197449 20.0625000 0.0 96.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 -358.062347 321.0634277 1.0 2 0 0.0
2 1488.0 128.0 303.0125000 0.0 17.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 17.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
4 1136.0 0.0 254.0406281 0.0 0.0 0.0 -0.0600000 0.0 0.0800000 30.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -548.0219543 -34.0392651 68.0625000 0.0 -135.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 -135.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
4 1480.0 -96.0 303.0125000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -614.0336365 255.0940186 20.0625000 0.0 -177.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 -177.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
10 -219.0422424 548.0461853 20.0625000 0.0 42.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 42.0 1.0 2 0 0.0
4 928.0 240.0 207.0125000 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 30.0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0
10 -467.0594543 491.0838898 84.0625000 0.0 -145.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 -145.0 1.0 2 0 0.0

I think the window room is the best location for the human base in Niveus, but it's hard to move there.

[Cadynum]

Not a compelling argument given how dominating aliens are in games ending at stage 1. And most games end between 4.6 and 22.8 minutes (if I'm reading the graph right); getting 2 whole frags isn't much of a stretch in that period, especially since you don't need as many kills to earn an equivalent amount to what the humans are getting from killing you. So I wouldn't say humans get a "huge advantage", and a small advantage is fine if it evens out by stage 3.

Asymmetrical teams are what defines tremulous, yes.
The imbalance might be okey given another imbalance later in the game? Perhaps for your ARNTG(tm) (average random non-teamwork game).

But to be honest I think your ARNTG would be fine no matter how stage1 looked since those games are decided at a later stage and people die/kill so much in the meantime.
In an organized game, like a clangame, not excluding public games since I've seen it happen there too, it will play out completely differently.
In a game like this the aliens could use aimbots for all we care, doesn't matter since they will die before they reach any human.
Humans can more or less do whatever pleases them the first 4 minutes. A forward base outside the alien base? Sure, no dretch is going to stop it for sure.
After the aliens do have something to fight it with, humans will have a huge advantage and aliens will be forced to play catch-up.

Granted almost every game will be an ARNTG, where, while being frustratingly bad, the dretches won't ruin the games.
I really see your reluctance against making the dretch anything more than cannon fodder unfounded.
It's not like tremulous will magically turn to nexuiz or some other boring uninspired FPS if we just give the dretch a decent chance to kill a human.
And if it turns out bad there's always Phase 6.

[Asvarox]

I agree that it's a lot easier to kill few dretches with a rifle than to kill few rifles with a dretch. But I don't think dretch is that underpowered (honestly I think it's fine). I believe that rifle is overpowered (as I said few times already). I don't know numbers, so statistically I might be wrong, but I believe that it has higher dps ( - reload time) than lasgun - when there's a mara rc jumping I get rifle, because it's likely that it lost some hp already (in case it's advanced "bug") and I will shoot it down faster. It's fire-rate saved me many times where there was a dretch storm trying to swarm me and it was likely that if I held lasgun I would he died. Sure lasgun is useful in many situations where rifle would kinda suck (ie. shooting aliens from longer distances, tking) but that doesn't compensate the cost difference. I end up using rifle until we have s1 so I don't lose so many credits in case I die.

IMO lasgun is vastly superior to the rifle.
Just for fun, even if i took note to your "i don't know the numbers", here are some statistics for 1 particular case:

Damage per `bullet`:
L: 9
R: 5

Time between bullets:
L: 0.2s
R: 0.09s

What does this mean?
To kill a dretch you need 3 lasgun shots or 5 rifle shots. Since you fire the first shot instantly it would boil down to this:
L: 0.2s * (3-1) = 0.40s
R: 0.09s * (5-1) = 0.36s

The difference is 0.04s for 1 dretch. A small price to pay for no spread and no reload.
This is, btw, also the reason the massdriver is the best weapon in the game for everything except tyrant (assuming perfect aim) while also strictly speaking having the lowest DPS.

I'm glad you gave us the numbers. I didn't meant to say that lasgun is somewhat weak, I wanted to say that rifle is too powerful considering it's cost. And I believe your post pretty much confirmed it, rifle is as (or even more) effective against a dretch as lasgun. If you get swarmed you might be able to kill one or two before you die and still you will lose no credits.

[Liskey]

Plz offer an example of base where a mara cannot zap more than 1 zap liskey
I am really curious

When he's racing toward the base and gets reduced to 50 hp by the rifles and lasguns running the other way.

[F50]

Hmmm.....Cadynum, would you consider it balanced if the rifle was nerfed rather than the dretch buffed?

[Norfenstein]

The imbalance might be okey given another imbalance later in the game?

Later in this case means several minutes at most, so yes, it's okay. And, besides me not agreeing that dretches are that much weaker than rifles, the only data I have shows that aliens are the stronger team at stage one, and I can't/won't balance for hypothetical circumstances.

[jit]

...remove the barb splash. Its unneeded, it tks, it makes it a spam weapon, instead of an aimed one.

It is great against dense human bases, making them not impenetrable. It tks if the player using it sux. It still needs to be aimed to be more useful.
(Oh btw, why the newlines in the middle of sentences O.o)

I agree with scrape. The splash on the barbs needs to go. Several times, I have used the snipe to hit someone point blank and the splash would damage me. There should be a fix where the Adv Goon shooting/launching the barb can't be damaged by the splash damage. Other than that, the new splash is alright. Tking isn't the problem with snipe, the player does need to learn when to shoot it.

[Cadynum]

Hmmm.....Cadynum, would you consider it balanced if the rifle was nerfed rather than the dretch buffed?

It might be for dretch vs rifle. However i don't think the rifle is overpowered versus anything else so I guess such a change would make underpowered versus anything else.
IMO the rifle is fine.

[Cadynum]

The imbalance might be okey given another imbalance later in the game?

Later in this case means several minutes at most, so yes, it's okay. And, besides me not agreeing that dretches are that much weaker than rifles, the only data I have shows that aliens are the stronger team at stage one, and I can't/won't balance for hypothetical circumstances.

It is by no means hypothetical.
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/eu1/games.php
As you can see by the killing-curves humans nearly always have more kills in the start. EVEN though those games see fairly limited amount of teamwork.

I also talk of experience from a lot of 1.1 clanwars:
In 1.1 the dretch is a bit (to be kind) underpowered in public games but hugely underpowered in clanwars.
In 1.2 the dretch is hugely underpowered in public games and I don't even want to think how horrible it is in 1.2 clanwars.

[Conzul]

Why was it's size increased anyway?