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Author Topic: Gameplay Preview Phase 2 Results  (Read 38934 times)
Norfenstein

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« on: January 09, 2010, 11:50:13 PM »

Well, the dust is beginning to settle for 1.2. I think we've all had a fair amount of time to adjust to the major changes, and, having let GPP phase two marinate for several weeks longer than phase one, I think we can trust that the statistics collected over this period more-or-less accurately reflect the genuine state of the game. And there's been an improvement.

Reading the graphs: Each cross is one game, the distance from 0 on the vertical axis indicates how close a game was to the mean duration for all games on the graph (the weighting for how much this affects the lines is half as much as we used in phase 1). The numbers in the bottom right are the min/median/max/standard deviation for stage up times and game duration.

Both servers combined


Euro server


US server


The lines for stage 1v1 and 2v2 are the most disappointing, but I'm relieved to see that the endgame (3v3 plus SD, which account for 35% of all games) is as close to perfect as I could hope for. This suggests that humans make better use of stage advantages (and neither team seems to stage up significantly faster than the other). So even though the win ratio isn't perfect (53 aliens to 47 humans), I'm quite satisfied overall. Which means that the gameplay changes I've decided on for phase three are based more on my own judgement and popular sentiment than the objective statistics.

Gameplay Changes for Phase 3

First of all, the flamer is still manifestly useless. In GPP phase 2 it was used for less structure kills than every other human weapon, and only managed to beat out the blaster, grenade, and painsaw in player kills. For a weapon best suited to killing low-level aliens, this is quite lousy. I do like where the damage is at now, but it's clear that the real issue is how much it hurts the wielder. Since kills from splash damage account for less than a quarter of all flamer kills, I think reducing its splash damage will actually be an improvement.

  • Flamer splash damage reduced 25 -> 12

Second, a frequent complaint I've heard is that humans have too little stamina for sprinting and dodging. This hadn't really seemed like an issue to me, but I don't disagree with the negative feedback. See this post if you want to know how I decided what to change.

  • Reduced sprinting's drain on stamina 8 -> 6
  • Changed the stamina threshold for jumping and dodging to the slowing threshold (-500) plus the cost of jumping or dodging (250 for both)
  • Increased the stamina restoration rate for standing 25 -> 30

Lastly, the dragoon has probably been the biggest point of contention since the start of the 1.2 gameplay preview. I think everyone has had plenty of time to get used to the new bite range and it seems like a significant number of people still feel it's too short. Moreover, I've come to agree that in bigger games it does feel a little inadequate (my guess is because it's more important to be able to pivot between targets). I think a small change is warranted.

  • Dragoon base chomp range increased 72 -> 80

The pounce, in contrast, seems to be considered by a lot of people to be overpowered. I don't necessarily agree that it's too overpowered, but I have felt for a while that it's slightly too hard to dodge -- mostly when the goon doesn't actually make contact with you, but flies past and hits you on the way. A range decrease (mechanically, the pounce works just like every other melee weapon) should make these attacks a little harder while having no impact on direct hits.

  • Dragoon pounce range reduced 54 -> 40

There will be a GPP phase four. If none of the above changes turn out to be regressions my plan is to just turn on friendly fire on both servers and see what happens.
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Lakitu7
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2010, 12:01:25 AM »

Both US1 and EU1 are updated with these changes.
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FreaK

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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2010, 12:44:38 AM »

I like all these changes, this will end up making it more fun for the majority of players.
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Kiwi


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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 02:33:59 AM »

Yep, the changes are great, but the flamer is used a lot right now.  I have a feeling this won't happen so much when ff is turned on.
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UniqPhoeniX
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 03:31:32 AM »

Most of the changes seem good, but how exactly is the pounce range used? From middle of bbox to corner would be 45.9 and 56.3gu for goon and +goon respectively (I think the origin point is higher, making it easier to hit targets above, and harder to hit below?). So is the new value enough to hit diagonally?
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kevlarman

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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 03:44:26 AM »

Most of the changes seem good, but how exactly is the pounce range used? From middle of bbox to corner would be 45.9 and 56.3gu for goon and +goon respectively (I think the origin point is higher, making it easier to hit targets above, and harder to hit below?). So is the new value enough to hit diagonally?
your numbers are off by a bit, but yeah it's a lightle tight to hit targets near corners with a pounce.
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Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
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UniqPhoeniX
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 04:09:05 AM »

Oh the +goon has smaller bbox :-x From middle of bbox to corner not edge: sqrt(26^2x2+27.5^2)= ~45.9 and sqrt(29^2x2+33^2)= ~52.6 (not 56.3).
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kevlarman

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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 04:15:55 AM »

you also got the viewheight wrong, and you're not taking into account the width of the attack.
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Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----
UniqPhoeniX
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 04:28:07 AM »

Dunno those, but viewheight is above center which makes hitting below even more difficult, and the width would have to be huge if +goon also has 40 pounce range and wants to hit diagonally.
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Celestial_Rage


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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 05:27:15 AM »

Any specific reason to reduce pounce range instead of pounce damage?
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Plague Bringer


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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 05:37:01 AM »

Any specific reason to reduce pounce range instead of pounce damage?
I suppose people were complaining more about being hit awkwardly than being hit hard.
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U R A Q T
Norfenstein

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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 02:26:23 PM »

Most of the changes seem good, but how exactly is the pounce range used? From middle of bbox to corner would be 45.9 and 56.3gu for goon and +goon respectively (I think the origin point is higher, making it easier to hit targets above, and harder to hit below?). So is the new value enough to hit diagonally?
I think it's more like sqrt(31^2 + 26^2 + 26^2) = 48.0936586256 for the dragoon and sqrt(39^2 + 29^2 + 29^2) = 56.5950527873 for the advanced goon (which currently gets +3 to its ranges over the base), in the absolute worst case scenario (below and beside your target). I didn't account for the vertical axis when choosing a range, but I did test this thoroughly and couldn't make myself not hit because of the bounding box, probably because you don't get just one chance to hit -- if you're pouncing into a target there's almost guaranteed to be a point at which you're in a good enough position to connect.

But yes, it's a little lame that it's theoretically impossible to hit a target under the right circumstances when you deserve to, but in practice you won't be able to distinguish between when this happens and when you really didn't deserve to hit. And these sorts of fly-by pounces are exactly what the change was supposed to make harder. It can still be changed if it turns out to be a problem.

Any specific reason to reduce pounce range instead of pounce damage?
Yes: partly because I don't want it to be impossible to one-hit kill unarmoured humans, but mostly because I don't believe there's any problem with the damage past stage one -- and I did agree that dodging pounces would often feel futile. Changing it this way makes skillful dodging more possible and skillful pouncing less trivial, which should be more interesting than just lowering the time it takes to die from pouncing.
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NotYarou


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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 02:34:26 PM »

So far these are interesting proposals; it will be interesting to see how they play out in practice.
I'm glad that human stamina is taking a step in the right direction, as are the various tweaks for dragoon.
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Celestial_Rage


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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 07:23:30 PM »

ehh, I misinterpreted the meaning of goon pounce range. I thought it meant the distance a could pounce, not the range of the pounce attack to hit. Sorry.
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A Spork
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2010, 12:17:33 AM »

Good grief.
Just played a couple games, and holy crap Flamer is Overpowered.
Humans were winning rounds in like 5 minutes just by getting s2, then having like 2 flammers and a lasgun rushing, game over man, game over.
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jit


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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 05:06:16 AM »

flamer isn't overpowered. it just wasn't used as much. its like s1 humans vs s1 aliens, 3 rifles vs 3 dretches and rifles with good aim will win. flamer has a pretty high price so its pretty good where its at now. people didn't really utilize it and now that the flamer's reach has been elongated, it can turn into a useful weapon.
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Winnie the Pooh


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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 08:35:22 PM »

What irritates me most about the flamer is that there's really no way to dodge it.. it hits just about everything whether you aim for it or not =/
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Kiwi


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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 10:55:48 PM »

"The Noob Luci"
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Conzul

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Seek One-ness, and you shall find all you seek...


« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 11:32:23 PM »

What irritates me most about the flamer is that there's really no way to dodge it.. it hits just about everything whether you aim for it or not =/

Truly. I intend to fire up fraps and post a comic video depicting fleeing tyrants accompanied by a comic, well fitting song. And I'll use only the flamer XD
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AppleJuice


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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2010, 01:40:26 AM »

I'm very satisfied with these - on paper. I wish I could playtest them. :/

Anyway, thank you!
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rotacak


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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 08:41:00 PM »

Can we download somewhere newest qvm?
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David
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David


« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 10:33:24 PM »

http://downloads.mercenariesguild.net/gpp/
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FreaK

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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2010, 05:08:07 PM »

I like the new changes a lot, it seems like to hit with goon pounce you have to aim in the center of the human which is good. Also, I think that the flamer is just a tad bit overpowered but with friendly fire on it might balance it out.
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Conzul

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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2010, 08:50:46 PM »

Yes, FF on will take care of the flamethrowers [smiles to self]
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3th4n


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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2010, 03:14:26 PM »

Yes, FF on will take care of the flamethrowers [smiles to self]

Not exactly sure how it would work, but maybe if there was a 300 hp damage limit against team kills that resets when you refuel at the arm. i say 300 hp damage so that the player cant go around and put the whole team on 20 hp, whilst rushing for example. Obviously the flamer would be a useless weapon to use in a team game if the quota didnt reset in these circumstances. Hopefully it would prevent flame grieving should FF be switched on.

Just an idea open to criticism.

EDIT: Hrmm i just thought it through a bit, and players could sit in base next to arm and kill teammates. Perhaps the quota resetting every 40-50 seconds is a more viable option.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 03:18:50 PM by 3th4n » Logged
x234r


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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2010, 04:38:43 PM »

 Hovel SAVE THE HOVEL  Hovel
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Hovel Save the hovel!! Hovel
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2010, 09:04:05 PM »

Hovel SAVE THE HOVEL  Hovel

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3th4n


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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2010, 08:04:11 AM »

The hovel is only useful on the server i play on because it can be spammed in sd around important structures, and to deny access to ramps.
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phungus420


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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 09:11:34 PM »

I've found goon pounce to require near perfect aim now.  Also humans can dodge all day, and sprint across the whole map now without ever slowing down.  The overall effect of the new changes is that you need perfect aim, or near perfect aim to be effective.  It's just not fun for me, so I've stopped playing, as basically the players with better aim but less overall skills are just dominating.  This contrasts completely with Trem 1.1 where strategy was superior to aiming abilities, and was one of the main reason I liked trem.  Of course the players who can aim well probably like the changes alot and maybe the point was to make a few players dominate more then they did in 1.1 without allowing successful resistance by smart players on aliens.  I don't know, that's just a gameplay design decision by the devs, I can't really declare one mechanic better (rewarding smart play vs rewarding skilled play), but the new version is geared toward rewarding the skill of aim over all other considerations.
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Silver


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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 09:22:14 PM »

I agree a lot with phungus, the range nerfs especially in pounce are a bit much.  You do have to be really close and have perfect aim to use anything effective.  I think we should find a happy medium between what we are now and what we were in 1.1
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