1.2 Gameplay Changes

[mooseberry]

Map attributes:

    * big size (good for aliens)
    * small size (good for humans)
    * wide areas (good for humans)
    * small passages (good for humans if map small, good for aliens if map big)

Large maps are never good for the alien team, as they are largely non-prone to building forward bases. Most adv. alien players will dc an forward base attempt by other aliens.

Uhh.... wrong. I'm not really sure how you could say this and have played Tremulous for any amount of time to be honest. Look at game recordings, aliens win with a good majority on most large maps. This is mostly because, as Bissig said, aliens can move fast to escape, hide in dark corners to avoid detection, and heal anywhere, they can use the large space to their advantage, while humans are forced to be more cautious of their health and often stick closer to their base.

[Conzul]

Map attributes:

    * big size (good for aliens)
    * small size (good for humans)
    * wide areas (good for humans)
    * small passages (good for humans if map small, good for aliens if map big)

Large maps are never good for the alien team, as they are largely non-prone to building forward bases. Most adv. alien players will dc an forward base attempt by other aliens.

Uhh.... wrong. I'm not really sure how you could say this and have played Tremulous for any amount of time to be honest. Look at game recordings, aliens win with a good majority on most large maps. This is mostly because, as Bissig said, aliens can move fast to escape, hide in dark corners to avoid detection, and heal anywhere, they can use the large space to their advantage, while humans are forced to be more cautious of their health and often stick closer to their base.

Sentence 1: I've played more tremulous than I'd care to admit.
Sentence 2: True, I didn't say they lose, I say it isn't good or (n00b friendly).
Sentence 3 et al >>
"aliens can move fast to escape" = bullets run faster
"hide in dark corners to avoid detection" = dark corners? No such thing with brightness exploits
"heal anywhere" = tell that to 1.2
"large space to advantage" = large space > more time that the alien is being shot at and less time that the alien is attacking the human.....transit?
"humans are forced to be more caustious.....stick closer to base" = don't blame them, it's their body.

[mana]

Seems I was right fearing those attributes would cause distraction from the main point I wanted to make

Anything we can/should do about how much the design of a map affects the outcome percentage?

And talking about forward bases again: If humans build two forward bases, they lack BPs equal to one turret in the reactor power range (2x repeater = 8BP).

Aliens do not have local BPs arround eggs. 2 Forward bases (1 egg 2 tubes) would result in a loss of 48 BPs for the main base defenses.

This doesnt mean aliens do not have other advantages compared to the humans that could possibly make up for this (eggs as spawns, structures on walls/ceiling) but I think this inbalance in forward-base-ability should be looked at.

Devs wanted to encourage forward building. I as an alien am more careful with that as when I play a human builder.

o/
Mana

[Asvarox]

aliens have 50 bps more than humans and it's easier to defend forward egg as an alien than as a human.

As for transit - if humans manage to kill aliens' base, they can eggspam which require a lot of hunting which require leaving base alone for longer which gives aliens time to do a surprise attack.

And for large maps for general:
 - once you run behind the corner bullets will likely stop following you.
 - aliens can also just hide (in vents or catwalks) which can buy them some time
 - tell that to lisks, forward boosters and creep going out-of-nowhere (ohainexusarachnidniveus)
 - he said that wide areas are "good for humans"

[UniqPhoeniX]

Longer distances between bases favor aliens, as human attackers will be weakened more before they reach alien base, and if aliens notice human attackers (which they usually do, as they are mostly out of base), then other aliens have time to get to base before humans, cuz they are so much faster. On big maps it's ofc easier for aliens to build a base far from humans.

[Vape]

@Conzul Check the stats on bigger maps aliens win more than humans.

[Conzul]

@Conzul Check the stats on bigger maps aliens win more than humans.

I know this already.

[mana]

Unless the wide areas have clear sky that dont allow wallwalk .. how's tha map called .. Blitzkrieg? Rather big in size, small passages but a huge open air area. If humans survive till their stage 2 its pretty much over due to jetpacks. IMHO

Well it seems I have to play 1.2 yet a bit longer and make use of the alien advantages more

Is there a link to recent stats somewhere?

[Conzul]

Mkay I rethought it: it's not hude maps, it's huge air-space that hurts aliens. aka transit. And eggspam only works if you can keep the om up.

[_Equilibrium_]

Perhaps I'm just blind but I can't seem to find where point values are listed for structures/alien classes/how much gear is on a human. Also, I'd like to know how much each alien class is worth in credits, and how much equipment constitutes more than one frag for kill on a human.

[Norfenstein]

The *_VALUE numbers in tremulous.h for aliens and structures, the total cost of equipment + 400 for humans. One frag = 400 alien credits.

See G_RewardAttackers in g_combat.c and BG_GetValueOfPlayer in bg_misc.c.

[HellsAngelz]

Still say basi in 1.1 was much better, I could attack from the ceiling.
(btw this is just a signature check, to see if it's actually up there o,o)

[Conzul]

I'm not here.

[Winnie the Pooh]

What exactly is meant by 'Alien Values Up 20%'?

[Norfenstein]

How much they're worth

[wolfbr]

some things related to model scale and bounding box b could be better tucked.

about defensive buidables, could be interesting to extend the sense range and reduce the damange(Turret, tesla,acid tube, hive), its more for fun factor : ).
about turret,it would have some inaccurate(like half life, Team Fortress, Natural selection..)

[Liskey]

Yeah, it's fun to watch the goons who think they are hiding around the corner, but their legs are sticking through the wall.

[Lakitu7]

It's difficult because if you make the bbox the size of all the goon's legs you can have shots that look like they totally missed become hits. Boxes as collision models for "wiry" objects has some drawbacks.

[David]

Can you have different bboxes for hit detection and collision detection?

[F50]

Even if you can have a different hitbox and bbox (which I believe you can, as someone mentioned in a discussion about crouching), "realistically" the goons legs could and would, in most situations, just pull closer to the body, making it functionally smaller. Tarantulas do this, and spiders that live in holes are able to live in the spaces they do because of this. It would be just as silly to watch a goon stop a pounce in midair because the tip of his leg (or worse, something under/above his leg) touched a wall/pipe/whatever. If you want it to look more "real" than it is currently, you're talking animations for this effect, not merely resizing bboxes. Checking to see if someone's leg has gone *through* a wall and not drawing it on the other side might be good though.

[FisherP]

Thinking out loud, is it possible to dynamically change the box or the movement/position of the legs dependent on movement. I.E. when the goon is moving the legs are out and the bbox and/or hit box is out. When the goon has stopped the legs come closer to the body, the bbox and/or the hitbox comes closer to the body too. This raises a question of what to do with pouncing. I would imagine that the legs would be out in a ready pose

[lucifer666s8n]

Ok, here I come to wreck the day..... Oh well...

I have played 1.2... Sorry but I have seen the same type of changes done with servers running different QVM's etc... Not worth labeling it a newer version of Trem.

A new version of trem should be more than just a few sound changes, a little different physics, and removal of the retard hovel. If I was the devs I would have looked for a way to revitalize Trem... I have seen suggestions ranging from flying aliens to vehicles for humans... With the new engines available or soon to be available this should be a priority.

 Trem should be able to compete with these newest FPS games out there, (I know it is Open Source, but have people even paid attention to things like the size of the trem community? The amount of sites that used to be dedicated to Trem disappearing? )

Ya I know, there will be people sit here and say Im stupid.. etc... Go on ahead... I still love Trem regardless of what you say about me... I play 1.1 and have never gone back to 1.2.. Hence... This post.

[HellsAngelz]

Ok, here I come to wreck the day..... Oh well...

I have played 1.2... Sorry but I have seen the same type of changes done with servers running different QVM's etc... Not worth labeling it a newer version of Trem.

A new version of trem should be more than just a few sound changes, a little different physics, and removal of the retard hovel. If I was the devs I would have looked for a way to revitalize Trem... I have seen suggestions ranging from flying aliens to vehicles for humans... With the new engines available or soon to be available this should be a priority.

 Trem should be able to compete with these newest FPS games out there, (I know it is Open Source, but have people even paid attention to things like the size of the trem community? The amount of sites that used to be dedicated to Trem disappearing? )

Ya I know, there will be people sit here and say Im stupid.. etc... Go on ahead... I still love Trem regardless of what you say about me... I play 1.1 and have never gone back to 1.2.. Hence... This post.

His inability to read is what amuses me. Lucifer, do you EVER read what you're downloading? Tremulous 1.2 is currently in BETA. If you've done ANY crawling around on the forums, you'd notice stannum's new current model animations. (Alien legs, human guns, new reload animations.)

So tell me what they have to do, *cough* aside from ditch some 1.2 gameplay settings *cough* to get a new tremulous community?

[lucifer666s8n]

So tell me what they have to do, *cough* aside from ditch some 1.2 gameplay settings *cough* to get a new tremulous community?

First of all as far as my inability to read? Please.. I spend my time on things I feel more important to Trem. But thats besides the point...

To reach a broader audience they need to include other aspects of this type of a game. Vehicles, flying aliens, aliens with intelligence enough to hold a weapon, a greater variance of base defense... Air support, walls, pillboxes etc...

The point is that many games are using those things and their player base is exploding. I understand that we are limited to Quake 3, but there has got to be more advanced engines available..

So 1.2 is a beta huh? Ok, well usually the finished product has some things taken OUT of the beta. Beta means only that they are putting the finishing touches... NOT revamping the system.. Sorry but scripting changes, a little different sounds... Physics changes etc.... That is not a New version... Maybe an Update patch... thats all...

I have been into games for 12 years and a new version generally is totally different than the prior one. We can do what Darklegion is doing on a server... Maps, graphics, physics, etc can all be changed by any coder/mapper/modder/etc.

So fine. You can like 1.2 all you want.. I dont care. All I am saying is that unless the game designers make trem new again it WILL die.. Maybe not in 2010, but as soon as a open source game comes out with all the things people are actually wanting.. Trem will be in the halls of rarely played games, necroed sites and dead servers...

[SlackerLinux]

btw technically it isn't 1.2 beta its 1.2 gpp(gameplay preview) the gameplay preview is so devs can get the balance right before moving to beta where the goal would be getting rid of bugs/etc that might have slipped past instead of fixing gameplay/balance issues.

trem doesnt need fancy things like Vehicles hell the maps that trem uses are not built for that im sure the engine could prob handle it if anyone wanted to code it in but why would there be a tank/truck/whatever in a small spacestation i think what trem has right now is more then enough and all that is needed is a fresh look and various balance fixes to bring in more players(which they have been working on/already made for 1.2 anyway)

[A Spork]

1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0

and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.

Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1

I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?

Also, what slacker said.

[Plague Bringer]

1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0

and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.

Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1

I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?

Also, what slacker said.

???

[lucifer666s8n]

1.2 is an update, that's why it's 1.1 -> 1.2, not 1.1 -> 2.0

and why the heck should aliens get guns??? The whole point of the different species is that they are different from humans, that's what makes em so fun.

Plus, with all the changes, they are making trem new again, it's not the same game as 1.1

I've never seen you ingame, nor have a seen you in the forums before just recently. You talk like a big shot, but have you done anything at all for trem?

Also, what slacker said.

Ok, first of all, I have said it before and I will say it again...

1. An Update is NOT a totally different game... Tweaked yes... Totally different, NO
2. Aliens with guns, machines, etc, makes for an even more interesting game... But its not my biggest concern.
3. You have never seen me in game? And your point? I tried 1.2 a while back and hated it... Why would you see me there? Moron... Read what I write, not what you think I am saying...
4. As far as talking like a big shot, you must be something special... I am not too active on these forums because I have more important things to do where I am helping keep trem popular. I am always active there, and we are more popular than any other server.. But what do I know? Your A spork... OOOO I am shaking in by boots...

trem doesnt need fancy things like Vehicles hell the maps that trem uses are not built for that im sure the engine could prob handle it if anyone wanted to code it in but why would there be a tank/truck/whatever in a small spacestation

Yes I know the fact that the current maps are not feasible for vehicles, BUT adding more open maps, to change things up. possibly alien worlds or even here on Earth would take trem to a whole new level..I cant see a tank in Atcs, duh, but maps are just that, maps, and new more vehicle friendly ones could be made..

btw technically it isn't 1.2 beta its 1.2 gpp(gameplay preview) the gameplay preview is so devs can get the balance right before moving to beta where the goal would be getting rid of bugs/etc that might have slipped past instead of fixing gameplay/balance issues.

Forgot about the difference between a Beta and GPP. Thanks for clearing that up..

And add what Plague Bringer Said...

[Asvarox]

3. You have never seen me in game? And your point? I tried 1.2 a while back and hated it... Why would you see me there? Moron... Read what I write, not what you think I am saying...

Well few months ago I had to change my phone, because I've broken my old one. First days of using it were like "What? No function X?", "How do I do Y?", "WTF??!?!? That's just retarded...", "Those chinese people suck at design things...", "KURWA MAĆ". Now I love everything in my phone (except playlist items limit - now that's just retarded), and I don't plan to change it anytime soon. I hope you get the (his) point now

[Conzul]

Aparently lucifer666s8n has yet another set of unique perspectives on how tremulous must operate. He didn't bother to cite reasons that his suggestions should be used, and he hasn't played enough to know anything useful. The fact that some people are taking time in discourse is confusing.
    Play the GPP. Then check back later!