1.2 Gameplay Changes

[FisherP]

... and I felt it was much more important to give builders the freedom to build forward without feeding the enemy team. And it's turned out that having forward bases encourages offense a lot more anyway.

  I agree with temple, reward for destroying base = win. If there's no benefit to destroying bases then I'd just camp outside the base and kill whore till SD, and with Share switched on the whole team would be stocked with evos. Or on the flip side, no point in leaving base, I'll just ret hug and pick off the aliens too slow to leave the base, get creds that way.

[Jedarus]

It's good that I don't have to bind sprint to my movement keys any more. It's much better toggling it imo

[Cadynum]

... and I felt it was much more important to give builders the freedom to build forward without feeding the enemy team. And it's turned out that having forward bases encourages offense a lot more anyway.

  I agree with temple, reward for destroying base = win. If there's no benefit to destroying bases then I'd just camp outside the base and kill whore till SD, and with Share switched on the whole team would be stocked with evos. Or on the flip side, no point in leaving base, I'll just ret hug and pick off the aliens too slow to leave the base, get creds that way.

There is no share in 1.2
Reward for killing base = you win the game.
One could also argue that if buildings give money, people would camp more to protect them.

[Lakitu7]

If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else.

[Blood-Lord]

this might be a bit random for a few of you people, but i just took a look at some of the textures that you guys have done to the aliens/weapons/humans, and to any of you developers who see this, You did an amazing Job.

[danmal]

There is no share in 1.2

Yeah, for about 5 minutes until someone releases a QVM with share.

If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else.

Ohh, screw credits then. I'll just whore the buildings for a while then. In all honesty score > credits.

[Celestial_Rage]

If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else.

If it gives you points, why shouldn't they give evos/credits?

I think that spawns and main structures should give credits/evos as, if nothing else, a punishment for building them badly. My main purpose of this is so that if someone rushes a base when it is empty and manages to take out the OM or something, but dies, he is gains nothing from it unless the entire team takes advantage of it (and from my experience with 1.1, maybe 2-4 of the better players actually rush when you tell them to and I doubt 1.2 shall be any different). If the entire team does not take advantage, the exploit goes to waste, and it is very likely that the rusher used up the last of his credits in that rush, and is thus, left creditless in the rush. If they got credits, they would be able to rush again and do more damage. This, gives more motivation to rush, especially for humans, if they can take out forward bases and win some easy credits.

[Silver]

If you're a scoreboard whore, destroying buildings does give you way more points than anything else.

That almost makes it feel off how it should feel.  I don't want some faggot picking off acid tubes to look better on the scoreboard when I'm dueling it out with rants.  I also agree that main structures should at least give some revenue reward.

[temple]

How is someone going to be picking off acid tubes without dealing with rants?  How are acid tubes going to be worth more than a rant?  That's a crazy assumption.

Everything contributes to winning a game. So killing structures should give a reward just like killing players.  There shouldn't be a gap in how credits/evos are handled.

Someone said that if structures give credits/evos, then people will camp them.  Well....they camp them anyway.  There still should be an incentive for risking your credits/evos to siege the enemy's base.  Otherwise, players will not have the credits/evos to attack the base again.

You can't stop people from camping.  You can punish people for camping.  But regardless of that, you can also reward those who do something else.  The problem is the only way to earn upgrades is by killing enemy players.  And enemy players can sit in their base and effectively halt the game and halt their opponents from getting any credits without SUPER ELITE SKILLS.

[Silver]

Temple, in my experience there is a lot of noobs who run off and pick off lower ATCS base thats almost irelevant while the rest of us are holding off tyrants at our base or down the hallway.  I'd rather people focus on eggs and the overmind since those are the structures that actually matter, but not noobs who manage out of base will have score incentive to go after acide tubes and barricades and other structures that other than Sudden Death hold no impactual reason to destroy.  If they're built well and you need to get past them thats the only reason and thats the only incentive you should need.  Most people find running past them/luci jumping more effective to the game and it fits well because those structures still do damage in that instance where as with human's range if they were overpowering those structures would be completely useless.

[Lakitu7]

Actually, picking off outer structures is useful because queued BP means it will take time before they or anything else can be rebuilt. Do it enough and you're picking off inner structures until there is nothing left.

[A Spork]

Maybe so, but I was playing last night on 1.2, and I rushed, and destroyed 90% of the alien base, but a granger got away, and I died from exploding structures, so I had no creds to chase down the granger, and he managed to get his entire base rebuilt.
So, IMHO, OM/RC + Nodes/Eggs + Booster/Arm-medi should give creds/evos.

[Lakitu7]

I don't particularly disagree but I'm not the one to convince.

[David]

Why can't you run down a granger with a rifle?  And where were your team?

(I agree that the base should give some funds somehow)

[A Spork]

It was in Nexus6, and it was 3v2.....Wallwalk makes it easy for him to get away....

[Flux]

• Evolving no longer resets your velocity.

so can u like be a goon and pounce into hummie base while evolving into rant and hop rc/eat base with rant?

[Lakitu7]

In theory, but you could do that in 1.1 as well. In 1.1 you needed to be directly overhead. In 1.2 you need to be on your way there.

[Silver]

Actually, picking off outer structures is useful because queued BP means it will take time before they or anything else can be rebuilt. Do it enough and you're picking off inner structures until there is nothing left.

In an involved team effort yes, one lone rifle couldn't keep up with the queued BP most likely.  It is mostly pointless bitter against some random noob getting score for not doing anything effective.  I also would rather have people focus on main structures first, taking out eggs will hurt aliens far more than taking out tubes ever could since aliens rely on themselves as the biggest point of defense being able to spawn effeciently is far more positive.  Which is why vital structures like spawns and power sources shoul definitely retun revenue credit while defense structures shouldn't, this way it encourages people to work towards ending the game, not killwhoring acid tubes to make their score higher.

[UniqPhoeniX]

• Evolving no longer resets your velocity.

so can u like be a goon and pounce into hummie base while evolving into rant and hop rc/eat base with rant?

Great idea! On Tremor and Transit especially, guess I'll be using that to get armories in 1.2 lol.

[Silver]

• Evolving no longer resets your velocity.

so can u like be a goon and pounce into hummie base while evolving into rant and hop rc/eat base with rant?

Great idea! On Tremor and Transit especially, guess I'll be using that to get armories in 1.2 lol.

I'd definitely use that on atcs with lisk or goon to get up top and evolve into rant in the process.  Can you imagine just seeing a rant flying over the top at pouncing speeds? 

[temple]

Aliens can't evolve near humans, so this whole flying goon to rant idea isn't possible in any useful situation.

[KamikOzzy]

Aliens can't evolve near humans, so this whole flying goon to rant idea isn't possible in any useful situation.

Are you sure? You can start your pounce, evolve, and be barreling through the air with your rant before you get close enough to humans to disallow evolving, right? Does sound kinda like some bs if it works that way.

Lakitu I think you're wrong this time, cause in 1.1 what temple said *is* completely relevant. You would have to be right above the base when you evolve, and it would say too close to enemies.

[danmal]

Are you sure? You can start your pounce, evolve, and be barreling through the air with your rant before you get close enough to humans to disallow evolving, right?

If anyone ever manages to do that then I will crown them king of Tremulous.

In an involved team effort yes, one lone rifle couldn't keep up with the queued BP most likely.  It is mostly pointless bitter against some random noob getting score for not doing anything effective.

Honestly I'd prefer them whittling away the bases defenses then kill whoring. Plus aliens are always running through their base so that guy will no doubt need to deal with aliens soonish.

[Silver]

In an involved team effort yes, one lone rifle couldn't keep up with the queued BP most likely.  It is mostly pointless bitter against some random noob getting score for not doing anything effective.

Honestly I'd prefer them whittling away the bases defenses then kill whoring. Plus aliens are always running through their base so that guy will no doubt need to deal with aliens soonish.

Which is exactly why its an issue.  Someone can go kill 1 maybe 2 tubes get killed and looking at the score board most people wouldn't realize he's feeding when he really is.  He would be giving the aliens evos and score while only obtaining a very minor amount of score that wouldn't be helping us any.  It will just encourage people to work on irelevant items and feed the aliens revenue. 

I don't encourage kill whoring either, but whats better about killwhoring tubes that don't give revenue to get upgrades instead of dretches?  I would prefer people take out as many big aliens as they can and after they've banked up revenue work on *proper* base rushes that include focusing on eggs and the overmind.

[danmal]

I don't encourage kill whoring either, but whats better about killwhoring tubes that don't give revenue to get upgrades instead of dretches?  I would prefer people take out as many big aliens as they can and after they've banked up revenue work on *proper* base rushes that include focusing on eggs and the overmind.

They don't though. Instead they usually kill whore all the nice easy to kill dretches with their luci canon and 2000 credits. Not only that but as people have mentioned before you don't get the BP back from destroyed structures straight away (especially if you're close to max BP) so that base could be without those tubes for a while.

Even if you could tell that the player isn't doing much how does that help you? Most servers don't allow you to kick total noobies for being terrible at the game. If you really do need/want a detailed breakdown of what each player is doing then something like F-SIT would probably be your best bet.

[Norfenstein]

What does "projectile volume 5 (against entities but not map architecture)" mean in the weapon descriptions?

It means, basically, that the projectile has a volume of 1 unit cubed with respect to walls and floors, but of 5 units cubed with respect to players and structures. So you can shoot through 1-unit wide hole in a wall, but when shooting between a wall and a dretch that's up to 5 units away from the wall, you will hit the dretch.

My apologies, 5 is actually the "radius" of the cube; they're 10 units on a side. Changelog corrected and clarified.

My main purpose of this is so that if someone rushes a base when it is empty and manages to take out the OM or something, but dies, he is gains nothing from it unless the entire team takes advantage of it (and from my experience with 1.1, maybe 2-4 of the better players actually rush when you tell them to and I doubt 1.2 shall be any different). If the entire team does not take advantage, the exploit goes to waste, and it is very likely that the rusher used up the last of his credits in that rush, and is thus, left creditless in the rush.

This is intentional. Players fight each other to build up funds; the team that gets more attacks and loses their advantage; repeat. Or they win the game. Teamwork helps.

If they got credits, they would be able to rush again and do more damage.

This didn't happen when we tried it.

Maybe so, but I was playing last night on 1.2, and I rushed, and destroyed 90% of the alien base, but a granger got away, and I died from exploding structures, so I had no creds to chase down the granger, and he managed to get his entire base rebuilt.
So, IMHO, OM/RC + Nodes/Eggs + Booster/Arm-medi should give creds/evos.

If you were the only one attacking then the aliens deserved to recover. It's a team game, and making it play well with fewer than six players isn't a high priority.

[Celestial_Rage]

Norf, I understand that Tremulous is meant to be a team game, but in all reality, it will not actually be one, with the exception of pickup games and scrims. The most a team will be able to scrape together will be maybe two or three people. And since you seem to be designing it to be balanced for the masses and not necessarily for scrims, which are definitely more strategic and teamwork based. Also, you seem to refer back to your dev games a lot. Last time I played in your planned dev games, I got yelled at for going out alone even though I doubt I was feeding The dev games are played much like pickup games and not at all like regular games will be played since everyone who plays is somewhat into tremulous already.

[khalsa]

Whatever dude, I feed like crazy and so do many many other people in the alpha/dev games

[your face]

....with the exception of pickup games and scrims.

blackoutblackoutblackoutblackoutblackout

[Celestial_Rage]

Whatever dude, I feed like crazy and so do many many other people in the alpha/dev games

I guess I got on on a bad day. Sorry, but that was just my experience.